Additional/complementary argument in favour (and against the “any difference you make is marginal” argument): one’s personal example of viable veganism increases the chances of others becoming vegan (or partially so, which is still a benefit). Under plausible assumptions this effect could be (potentially much) larger the the direct effect of personal consumption decisions.
I have to say that the claimed reductios here strike me as under-argued, particularly when there are literally decades of arguments articulating and defending various versions of moral anti-realism, and which set out a range of ways in which the implications, though decidedly troubling, need not be absurd.
His 2018 lectures are also available on youtube and seem pretty good so far if anyone wants a complement to the book. The course website also has lecture notes and exercises.
To me, at least, it seems clear that you should not take the opportunities to reduce your torture sentence. After all, if you repeatedly decide to take them, you will end up with a 0.5 chance of being highly uncomfortable and a 0.5 chance of being tortured for 3^^^^3 years. This seems like a really bad lottery, and worse than the one that lets me have a 0.5 chance of having an okay life.
FWIW, this conclusion is not clear to me. To return to one of my original points: I don't think you can dodge this objection by arguing from potentially idiosyncratic preferences, even perfectly reasonable ones; rather, you need it to be the case that no rational agent could have different preferences. Either that, or you need to be willing to override otherwise rational individual preferences when making interpersonal tradeoffs.
To be honest, I'm actually not entirely averse to the latter option: having interpersonal trade-offs determined by contingent individual risk-preferences has never seemed especially well-justified to me (particularly if probability is in the mind). But I confess it's not clear whether that route is open to you, given the motivation for your system as a whole.
More generally, I think the basic property of non-real-valued consistent preference orderings is that they value some things "infinitely more" than others.
That makes sense, thanks.
So, I don't think your concern about keeping utility functions bounded is unwarranted; I'm just noting that they are part of a broader issue with aggregate consequentialism, not just with my ethical system.
Agreed!
you just need to make it so the supremum of them their value is 1 and the infimum is 0.
Fair. Intuitively though, this feels more like a rescaling of an underlying satisfaction measure than a plausible definition of satisfaction to me. That said, if you're a preferentist, I accept this is internally consistent, and likely an improvement on alternative versions of preferentism.
One issue with only having boundedness above is that is that the expected of life satisfaction for an arbitrary agent would probably often be undefined or in expectation
Yes, and I am obviously not proposing a solution to this problem! More just suggesting that, if there are infinities in the problem that appear to correspond to actual things we care about, then defining them out of existence seems more like deprioritising the problem than solving it.
The utility monster feels an incredibly strong need to have everyone on Earth be tortured
I think this framing muddies the intuition pump by introducing sadistic preferences, rather than focusing just on unboundedness below. I don't think it's necessary to do this: unboundedness below means there's a sense in which everyone is a potential "negative utility monster" if you torture them long enough. I think the core issue here is whether there's some point at which we just stop caring, or whether that's morally repugnant.
in order to act, you need more than just a consistent preference order over possible universe. In reality, you only get to choose between probability distributions over possible worlds, not specific possible worlds
Sorry, sloppy wording on my part. The question should have been "does this actually prevent us having a consistent preference ordering over gambles over universes" (even if we are not able to represent those preferences as maximising the expectation of a real-valued social welfare function)? We know (from lexicographic preferences) that "no-real-valued-utility-function-we-are-maximising-expectations-of" does not immediately imply "no-consistent-preference-ordering" (if we're willing to accept orderings that violate continuity). So pointing to undefined expectations doesn't seem to immediately rule out consistent choice.
In an infinite universe, there's already infinitely-many people, so I don't think this applies to my infinite ethical system.
YMMV, but FWIW allowing a system of infinite ethics to get finite questions (which should just be a special case) wrong seems a very non-ideal property to me, and suggests something has gone wrong somewhere. Is it really never possible to reach a state where all remaining choices have only finite implications?
I'll clarify the measure of life satisfaction I had in mind. Imagine if you showed an agent finitely-many descriptions of situations they could end up being in, and asked the agent to pick out the worst and the best of all of them. Assign the worst scenario satisfaction 0 and the best scenario satisfaction 1.
Thanks. I've toyed with similar ideas perviously myself. The advantage, if this sort of thing works, is that it conveniently avoids a major issue with preference-based measures: that they're not unique and therefore incomparable across individuals. However, this method seems fragile in relying on a finite number of scenarios: doesn't it break if it's possible to imagine something worse than whatever the currently worst scenario is? (E.g. just keep adding 50 more years of torture.) While this might be a reasonable approximation in some circumstances, it doesn't seem like a fully coherent solution to me.
This seems pretty horrible to me, so I'm satisfied with keeping the measure of life satisfaction to be bounded.
IMO, the problem highlighted by the utility monster objection is fundamentally a prioritiarian one. A transformation that guarantees boundedness above seems capable of resolving this, without requiring boundedness below (and thus avoiding the problematic consequences that boundedness below introduces).
Further, suppose you do decide to have an unbounded measure of life satisfaction
Given issues with the methodology proposed above for constructing bounded satisfaction functions, it's still not entirely clear to me that this is really a decision, as opposed to an empirical question (which we then need to decide how to cope with from a normative perspective). This seems like it may be a key difference in our perspectives here.
So, if you're trying to maximize the expected moral value of the universe, you won't be able to. And, as a moral agent, what else are you supposed to do?
Well, in general terms the answer to this question has to be either (a) bite a bullet, or (b) find another solution that avoids the uncomfortable trade-offs. It seems to me that you'll be willing to bite most bullets here. (Though I confess it's actually a little hard for me to tell whether you're also denying that there's any meaningful tradeoff here; that case still strikes me as less plausible.) If so, that's fine, but I hope you'll understand why to some of us that might feel less like a solution to the issue of infinities, than a decision to just not worry about them on a particular dimension. Perhaps that's ultimately necessary, but it's definitely non-ideal from my perspective.
A final random thought/question: I get that we can't expected utility maximise unless we can take finite expectations, but does this actually prevent us having a consistent preference ordering over universes, or is it potentially just a representation issue? I would have guessed that the vNM axiom we're violating here is continuity, which I tend to think of as a convenience assumption rather than an actual rationality requirement. (E.g. there's not really anything substantively crazy about lexicographic preferences as far as I can tell, they're just mathematically inconvenient to represent with real numbers.) Conflating a lack of real-valued representations with lack of consistent preference orderings is a fairly common mistake in this space. That said, if it were just really just a representation issue, I would have expected someone smarter than me to have noticed by now, so (in lieu of actually checking) I'm assigning that low probability for now.
Re boundedness:
It's important to note that the sufficiently terrible lives need to be really, really, really bad already. So much so that being horribly tortured for fifty years does almost exactly nothing to affect their overall satisfaction. For example, maybe they're already being tortured for more than 3^^^^3 years, so adding fifty more years does almost exactly nothing to their life satisfaction.
I realise now that I may have moved through a critical step of the argument quite quickly above, which may be why this quote doesn't seem to capture the core of the objection I was trying to describe. Let me take another shot.
I am very much not suggesting that 50 years of torture does virtually nothing to [life satisfaction - or whatever other empirical value you want to take as axiologically primitive; happy to stick with life satisfaction as a running example]. I am suggesting that 50 years of torture is terrible for [life satisfaction]. I am then drawing a distinction between [life-satisfaction] and the output of the utility function that you then take expectations of. The reason I am doing this, is because it seems to me that whether [life satisfaction] is bounded is a contingent empirical question, not one that can be settled by normative fiat in order to make it easier to take expectations.
If, as a matter of empirical fact, [life satisfaction] is bounded, then the objection I describe will not bite.
If, on the other hand [life-satisfaction] is not bounded, then requiring the utility function you take expectations of to be bounded forces us to adopt some form of sigmoid mapping from [life satisfaction] to "utility", and this in turn forces us, at some margin, to not care about things that are absolutely awful (from the perspective of [life satisfaction]). (If an extra 50 years of torture isn't sufficient awful for some reason, then we just need to pick something more awful for the purposes of the argument).
Perhaps because I didn't explain this very well the first time, what's not totally clear to me from your response, is whether you think:
(a) [life satisfaction] is in fact bounded; or
(b) even if [life satisfaction] is unbounded, it's actually ok to not care about stuff that is absolutely (infinitely?) awful from the perspective of [life-satisfaction] because it lets us take expectations more conveniently. [Intentionally provocative framing, sorry. Intended as an attempt to prompt genuine reflection, rather than to score rhetorical points.]
It's possible that (a) is true, and much of your response seems like it's probably (?) targeted at that claim, but FWIW, I don't think this case can be convincingly made by appealing to contingent personal values: e.g. suggesting that another 50 years of torture wouldn't much matter to you personally won't escape the objection, as long as there's a possible agent who would view their life-satisfaction as being materially reduced in the same circumstances.
Suggesting evolutionary bounds on satisfaction is another potential avenue of argument, but also feels too contingent to do what you really want.
Maybe you could make a case for (a) if you were to substitute a representation of individual preferences for [life satisfaction]? I'm personally disinclined towards preferences as moral primitives, particularly as they're not unique, and consequently can't deal with distributional issues, but YMMV.
ETA: An alternative (more promising?) approach could be to accept that, while it may not cover all possible choices, in practice we're more likely to face choices with an infinite extensive margin than with an infinite intensive margin, and that the proposed method could be a reasonable decision rule for such choices. Practically, this seems like it would be acceptable as long as whatever function we're using to map [life-satisfaction] into utility isn't a sigmoid over the relevant range, and instead has a (weakly) negative second derivative over the (finite) range of [life satisfaction] covered by all relevant options.
(I assume (in)ability-to-take-expectations wasn't intended as an argument for (a), as it doesn't seem up to making such an empirical case?)
On the other hand, if you're actually arguing for (b), then I guess that's a bullet you can bite; though I think I'd still be trying to dodge it if I could. ETA: If there's no alternative but to ignore infinities on either the intensive or extensive margin, I could accept choosing the intensive margin, but I'm inclined think this choice should be explicitly justified, and recognised as tragic if it really can't be avoided.
I can see the appeal, but I worry that a metaphor where a single person is given a single piece of software, and has an option to rewrite it for their own and/or others’ purpose without grappling with myriad upstream and downstream dependencies, vested interests, and so forth is probably missing an important part of the dynamics of real world systems?
(This doesn’t really speak to moral obligations to systems, as much as practical challenges doing anything about them, but my experience is that the latter is a much more binding constraint.)