Comment author: gaffa 03 September 2009 09:06:47PM *  9 points [-]

It is better to have an approximate answer to the right question than an exact answer to the wrong question.

-- John Tukey

Comment author: conchis 03 September 2009 10:26:17PM *  5 points [-]

FWIW, the exact quote (from pp.13-14 of this article) is:

Far better an approximate answer to the right question, which is often vague, than the exact answer to the wrong question, which can always be made precise. [Emphasis in original]

Your paraphrase is snappier though (as well as being less ambiguous; it's hard to tell in the original whether Tukey intends the adjectives "vague" and "precise" to apply to the questions or the answers).

Comment author: SilasBarta 02 September 2009 03:40:15PM 4 points [-]

Warning: grouchiness follows.

A draft-reader suggested to me that this question is poorly motivated: what other kinds of agents could there be, besides “could”/“would”/“should” agents?

Actually, I made the same criticism of that category, except in more detail. Was that acausal, or am I just more worthy of reviewing your drafts?

And your response in the footnote looks like little more than, "don't worry, you'll get it some day, like schoolkids and fractions". Not helpful.

Humans ... have CSA-like structure. That is, we consider “alternatives” and act out the alternative from which we “expect” the highest payoff

Excuse me, isn't this just the classical "rational agent" model that research has long since refuted? For one thing, many actions people perform are trivially impossible to interpret this way (in the sense of your diagram), given reaction times and known computational properties of the brain. That is, the brain doesn't have enough time to form enough distinct substates isomorphic to several human-like responses, then evaluate them, then compare the evaluations.

For another, the whole heuristics and biases literature repeated ad infinitum on OB/LW.

Finally, even when humans do believe they're evaluating several choices looking for the best payoff (per some multivariable utility function), what really happens is that they pick one quickly based on "gut instinct" -- meaning some heuristic, good or bad -- and then bend all conscious evaluation to favor it. In at least some laboratory settings, this is shown explicitly: the researchers can predict what the subject will do, and then the subject gives some plausible-sounding rationalization for why they did it.

(And if you say, "using heuristics is a kind of evaluation of alternatives", then you're again stretching the boundaries of the concept of a CSA wide enough to be unhelpful.)

There are indeed cases where people do truly consider the alternatives and make sure they are computing the actual consequences and the actual congruence with their actual values, but this is an art people have to genuinely work towards; it is not characteristic of general human action.


In any case, all of the above assumes a distinction I'm not convinced you've made. To count as a CSA, is it necessary that you be physically able to extract the alternatives under consideration ("Silas considered making his post polite, but assigned it low utility")? Because the technology certainly doesn't exist to do that on humans. Or is it only necessary that it be possible in principle? If the latter, you run back into the problem of the laws of physics being embedded in all parts of the universe:

I observe a pebble. Therefore, I know the laws of the universe. Therefore, I can compute arbitrary counterfactuals. Therefore, I compute a zero pebble-utility for everything the pebble "pebble-could" do, except follow the laws of physics.

Therefore, there is no "not-CSA" option.

Comment author: conchis 03 September 2009 06:25:19PM *  0 points [-]

all of the above assumes a distinction I'm not convinced you've made

If it is possible in principle, to physically extract the alternatives/utility assignments etc., wouldn't that be sufficient to ground the CSA--non-CSA distinction, without running afoul of either current technological limitations, or the pebble-as-CSA problem? (Granted, we might not always know whether a given agent is really a CSA or not, but that doesn't seem to obviate the distinction itself.)

Comment author: taw 01 September 2009 07:54:07PM 1 point [-]

That's a good counter-argument, but the linked post doesn't actually measure religion-happiness correlation within those other countries (which is the relevant factor), and it's very plausible that European monopolistic religions are far less effective than American freely competing religions for creating happiness.

Comment author: conchis 01 September 2009 09:55:02PM *  1 point [-]

The Snoep paper Will linked to measured the correlation for the US, Denmark and the Netherlands (and found no significant correlation in the latter two).

The monopolist religion point is of course a good one. It would be interesting to see what the correlation looked like in relatively secular, yet non-monopolistic countries. (Not really sure what countries would qualify though.)

Comment author: taw 01 September 2009 06:10:17PM 2 points [-]

Out of pure curiosity, what's your probability distribution of Scientology (or some other such group) being useful? Not the Xenu part, but is it possible that they've discovered some techniques to make people happier, more successful, etc.?

We already have some limited evidence that conventionally religious people are happier, and conventional religions are quite weak.

Comment author: conchis 01 September 2009 07:44:42PM 2 points [-]

We already have some limited evidence that conventionally religious people are happier

But see Will Wilkinson on this too (arguing that this only really holds in the US, and speculating that it's really about "a good individual fit with prevailing cultural values" rather than religion per se).

In response to comment by conchis on Working Mantras
Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 25 August 2009 01:36:03PM 6 points [-]

The idea is that when you are listening to music, you are handicapping yourself by taking some of the attention of the aural modality. If you are used to rely on it in your thinking, this makes you impaired.

This is related to an experiment that Feynman describes in this video:
Feynman 'Fun to Imagine' 11: Ways of Thinking

In the experiment, you need to count in your mind, while doing various activities. That attention was really paid to the counting is controlled by you first calibrating and then using the counting process to predict when exactly a minute has passed. Thus, you can't cheat, you have to really go on counting.

Feynman himself says that he was unable to speak while counting, as he was "speaking" and "hearing" these numbers in his mind. Another man he asked to do the experiment had no difficulty speaking, but was unable to read: he then explained that he was counting visually.

I tried it both ways, and the difference shows in different speeds of counting in these modes which are hard to synchronize (and so just switching between them doesn't work very well).

Comment author: conchis 25 August 2009 01:47:28PM *  3 points [-]

Thanks for the explanation.

The idea is that when you are listening to music, you are handicapping yourself by taking some of the attention of the aural modality.

I'd heard something similar from a friend who majored in psychology, but they explained it in terms of verbal processing rather than auditory processing more generally, which is why (they said) music without words wasn't as bad.

I'm not sure whether it's related, but I've also been told by a number of musically-trained friends that they can't work with music at all, because they can't help but analyse it as they listen: for them, listening seems to automatically involve processing work that it doesn't (seem to) for me, precisely because I'm not capable of such processing. (This was part of the reason I was originally wondering about individual variation; the point you make at the end is really interesting in this regard too.)

In response to comment by conchis on Working Mantras
Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 25 August 2009 11:29:31AM 0 points [-]

Do you rely mostly on visual imagination?

Comment author: conchis 25 August 2009 01:13:12PM 0 points [-]

Sometimes, but it varies quite a lot depending on exactly what I'm doing. The only correlation I've noticed between the effect of music and work-type is that the negative effect of lyrics is more pronounced when I'm trying to write.

Of course, it's entirely possible that I'm just not noticing the right things - which is why I'd be interested in references.

In response to Working Mantras
Comment author: gwern 25 August 2009 06:05:00AM 6 points [-]

I don't listen to music while working, because of studies showing that, e.g., programmers listening to music are equally competent at implementing a given algorithm, but much less likely to notice that the algorithm's output is always equal to its input.

This is absolutely true. I'm a little shocked at how many programmers and other 'mind-workers' (students are especially bad at this) think that putting on some music is helpful, or neutral. It's neither; even classical music or chants hurt.

(I have no studies handy for this, but I've tried music with Mnemosyne, Gbrainy, and Dual N-back, and in all 3 and all the sessions, my statistical performance was hurt to a greater or less extent.)

In response to comment by gwern on Working Mantras
Comment author: conchis 25 August 2009 09:47:50AM *  1 point [-]

If anyone does have studies to hand I'd be grateful for references.* I personally find it difficult to work without music. That may be habit as much as anything else, though I expect part of the benefit is due to shutting out other, more distracting noise. I've noticed negative effects on my productivity on the rare occasions I've listened to music with lyrics, but that's about it.

* I'd be especially grateful for anything that looks at how much individual variation there is in the effect of music.

Comment author: taw 24 August 2009 01:52:03PM 0 points [-]

Thanks.

By doubt I just mean it's really really easy to get it spectacularly wrong in a systemic way in too many ways, so I'm only going to believe the result if it's robust with wide variety of tests and situations. Not that there's no value in it.

Comment author: conchis 24 August 2009 03:17:39PM *  0 points [-]

Fair enough. My impression of the SWB literature is that the relationship is robust, both in a purely correlational sense, and in papers like the Frey and Stutzer one where they try to control for confounding factors like personality and selection. The only major catch is how long it takes individuals to adapt after the initial SWB spike.

Indeed, having now managed to track down the paper behind your first link, it seems like this is actually their main point. From their conclusion:

Our results show that (a) selection effects appear to make happy people more likely to get and stay married, and these selection effects are at least partially [emphasis mine] responsible for the widely documented association between marital status and SWB; (b) on average, people adapt quickly and completely to marriage, and they adapt more slowly to widowhood (though even in this case, adaptation is close to complete after about 8 years); (c) there are substantial individual differences in the extent to which people adapt; and (d) the extent to which people adapt is strongly related to the degree to which they react to the initial event—those individuals who reacted strongly were still far from baseline levels years after the event. These last two findings indicate that marital transitions can be related to changes in satisfaction but that these effects may be overlooked if only average trends are examined.

Comment author: taw 17 August 2009 03:24:35AM 0 points [-]

I've heard somewhere that after you exclude divorced and widowed people, the correlation between being married and happiness entirely disappears. I tried regoogling it without success, but maybe more effort will get you the original research.

Comment author: conchis 24 August 2009 09:52:24AM *  0 points [-]

FWIW, this seems inconsistent with the evidence presented in the paper linked here, and most of the other work I've seen. The omitted category in most regression analyses is "never married", so I don't really see how this would fly.

Comment author: taw 17 August 2009 03:27:06AM 0 points [-]

"All other evidence" being? I a priori doubt all the happiness research as based on silly questionnaires and naive statistics (and most other psychological research). Is there any good metaanalysis showing anything like that?

Comment author: conchis 24 August 2009 09:49:38AM 1 point [-]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you (in fairness, you didn't get back to me either!). A good paper (though not a meta-analysis) on this is:

Stutzer and Frey (2006) Does Marriage Make People Happy or Do Happy People Get Married? Journal of Socio-Economics 35:326-347. links

The lit review surveys some of the other evidence.

I a priori doubt all the happiness research as based on silly questionnaires and naive statistics

I'm a little puzzled by this comment given that the first link you provided looks (on its face) to be based on exactly this sort of evidence. But in any event, many of the studies mentioned in the Stutzer and Frey paper look at health and other outcomes as well.

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