Comment author: roland 10 April 2013 10:22:21PM *  1 point [-]

I don't get all the criticism of PUAs, submitter B mentions them but doesn't provide any elaborate arguments and I don't think it's fair to compare them to gay converters(gay converters want to change other people PUAs don't, on the contrary they accept woman exactly how they are). In effect PU is understanding how women work and adjusting your behavior to become attractive to them. Could you be more specific in what exactly is wrong with them?

Comment author: crazy88 11 April 2013 12:30:59AM *  20 points [-]

If the sole determining factor of whether an interaction with a women is desirable is whether they end up attracted to you then, yes, even the most extreme sort of pick up artistry would be unproblematic.

However, if you think that there are other factors that determine whether such an interaction is desirable (such as whether the woman is treated with respect, is not made to feel unpleasant etc) then certain sorts of pick up artistry are extremely distasteful.

For example, let's hypothetically imagine that women are more attracted to people who make them feel insecure (I take no position on the accuracy of this claim). Sure, it would just be "understanding how women work and adjusting your behaviour to be more attractive to them" if you deliberately made them feel insecure. And sure, this would be no problem if being attractive was the sole determining factor of whether the interaction was desirable. However, if you think women deserve to be treated with respect and not made to feel horrible (presuming not because they are women but just because all humans deserve this) then this interaction is extremely undesirable.

Some discussions of pick up artistry don't just blur this line but fail to even realise there is a line. To those who think women should be treated with respect, this is extremely concerning.

Comment author: wedrifid 04 April 2013 04:09:28AM 0 points [-]

The strategy I have been considering in my attempt to prove a paradox inconsistent is to prove a contradiction using the problem formulation.

This seems like a worthy approach to paradoxes! I'm going to suggest the possibility of broadening your search slightly. Specifically, to include the claim "and this is paradoxical" as one of the things that can be rejected as producing contradictions. Because in this case there just isn't a paradox. You take the one box, get rich and if there is a decision theory that says to take both boxes you get a better theory. For this reason "Newcomb's Paradox" is a misnomer and I would only use "Newcomb's Problem" as an acceptable name.

In Newcomb's problem, suppose each player uses a fair coin flip to decide whether to one-box or two-box. Then Omega could not have a sustained correct prediction rate above 50%. But the problem formulation says Omega does; therefore the problem must be inconsistent.

Yes, if the player is allowed access to entropy that Omega cannot have then it would be absurd to also declare that Omega can predict perfectly. If the coin flip is replaced with a quantum coinflip then the problem becomes even worse because it leaves an Omega that can perfectly predict what will happen but is faced with a plainly inconsistent task of making contradictory things happen. The problem specification needs to include a clause for how 'randomization' is handled.

Alternatively, Omega knew the outcome of the coin flip in advance; let's say Omega has access to all relevant information, including any supposed randomness used by the decision-maker. Then we can consider the decision to already have been made; the idea of a choice occurring after Omega has left is illusory (i.e. deterministic; anyone with enough information could have predicted it.)

Here is where I should be able to link you to the wiki page on free will where you would be given an explanation of why the notion that determinism is incompatible with choice is a confusion. Alas that page still has pretentious "Find Out For Yourself" tripe on it instead of useful content. The wikipedia page on compatibilism is somewhat useful but not particularly tailored to a reductionist decision theory focus.

In this case of the all-knowing Omega, talking about what someone should choose after Omega has left seems mistaken. The agent is no longer free to make an arbitrary decision at run-time, since that would have backwards causal implications; we can, without restricting which algorithm is chosen, require the decision-making algorithm to be written down and provided to Omega prior to the whole simulation. Since Omega can predict the agent's decision, the agent's decision does determine what's in the box, despite the usual claim of no causality. Taking that into account, CDT doesn't fail after all.

There have been attempts to create derivatives of CDT that work like that. That replace the "C" from conventional CDT with a type of causality that runs about in time as you mention. Such decision theories do seem to handle most of the problems that CDT fails at. Unfortunately I cannot recall the reference.

I would love to hear from someone in further detail on these issues of consistency. Have they been addressed elsewhere? If so, where?

I'm not sure which further details you are after. Are you after a description of Newcomb's problem that includes the details necessary to make it consistent? Or about other potential inconsistencies? Or other debates about whether the problems are inconsistent?

Comment author: crazy88 04 April 2013 04:47:14AM 0 points [-]

There have been attempts to create derivatives of CDT that work like that. That replace the "C" from conventional CDT with a type of causality that runs about in time as you mention. Such decision theories do seem to handle most of the problems that CDT fails at. Unfortunately I cannot recall the reference.

You may be thinking of Huw Price's paper available here

Comment author: pinyaka 14 March 2013 01:08:58AM *  2 points [-]

Also,

Experiments have shown that many people prefer (1A) to (1B) and (2B) to (2A)...So independence implies that anyone that prefers (1A) to (1B) must also prefer (2B) to (2A).

Shouldn't independence have people who prefer (1A) to (1B) prefer (2A) to (2B)?

EDIT:

But because the direct approach is very recent (Peterson 2008; Cozic 2011), and only time will show whether it can stand up to professional criticism.

Either the word "because" or "and" is out of place here.

I only notice these things because this FAQ is great and I'm trying to understand every detail that I can.

Comment author: crazy88 15 March 2013 10:06:00PM 0 points [-]

Thanks Pinyaka, changed for next edit (and glad to hear you're finding it useful).

Comment author: AlexMennen 05 March 2013 12:25:43PM 0 points [-]

If I understand correctly, Peterson is defining "acts" and "risky acts" as completely separate things (functions from states to outcomes, and lotteries over outcomes, respectively). If that's true, it clears up the confusion, but that seems like extraordinarily bad terminology.

Comment author: crazy88 05 March 2013 09:25:09PM 0 points [-]

Okay, well I've rewritten this for the next update in a way that hopefully resolves the issues.

If you have time, once the update is posted I'd love to know whether you think the rewrite is successful. In any case, thanks for taking the time to comment so far.

Comment author: AlexMennen 05 March 2013 09:29:28AM 0 points [-]

Either Peterson does things wrong, you're misunderstanding Peterson, or I'm misunderstanding you. When I have time, I'll look at that book to try to figure out which, unless you manage to sort things out for me before I get to it.

Comment author: crazy88 05 March 2013 09:59:06AM *  1 point [-]

Some quotes might help.

Peterson defines an act "as a function from a set of states to a set of outcomes"

The rest of the details are contained in this quote: "The key idea in von Neumann and Morgenstern's theory is to ask the decision maker to state a set of preferences over risky acts. These acts are called lotteries, because the outcome of each act is assumed to be randomly determined by events (with known probabilities) that cannot be controlled by the decision maker".

The terminology of risky acts is more widespread than Peterson: http://staff.science.uva.nl/~stephane/Teaching/UncDec/vNM.pdf


However, I don't particularly see the need to get caught up in the details of what some particular people said: mostly I just want a clear way of saying what needs to be said.

Perhaps the best thing to do is (a) be more explicit about what lotteries are in the VNM system; and (b) be less explicit about how lotteries and acts interact. Use of the more neutral word "options" might help here [where options are the things the agent is choosing between].

Specifically, I could explicitly note that lotteries are the options on the VNM account (which is not to say that all lotteries are options but rather that all options are lotteries on this account), outline everything in terms of lotteries and then, when talking about the issue of action guidance, I can note that VNM, at least in the standard formulation, requires that an agent already has preferences over options and note that this might seem undesirable.

Comment author: Jayson_Virissimo 05 March 2013 03:33:39AM *  4 points [-]

In what ways does this differ from Nozick's recommendation in Nature of Rationality where he combines the results from EDT and CDT but gives them different weights depending on the priors (about the applicability to the situation and truth value of each decision theory)?

Comment author: crazy88 05 March 2013 08:38:06AM 2 points [-]

From memory, Nozick explicitly disclaims the idea that his view might be a response to normative uncertainty. Rather, he claims that EDT and CDT both have normative force and so should both be taken into account. While this may appear to be window dressing, this will have fairly substantial impacts. In particular, no regress threatens Nozick but the regress issue is going to need to be responded to in the normative uncertainty case.

Comment author: AlexMennen 05 March 2013 12:41:17AM 1 point [-]

Perhaps worth noting that earlier in the document we defined acts as functions from world states to outcomes so this seems to resolve the second concern somewhat.

What? That's what I thought "acts" meant the first time, before I read the document more thoroughly and decided that you must mean that acts are lotteries. If you are using "act" to refer to functions from world states to outcomes, then the statement that the VNM system only applies to acts is simply false, rather than misleading.

Comment author: crazy88 05 March 2013 07:26:30AM *  0 points [-]

Okay, so I've been reading over Peterson's book An Introduction to Decision Theory and he uses much the same language as that used in the FAQ with one difference: he's careful to talk about risky acts rather than just acts (when he talks about VNM, I mean, he does simply talk about acts at some other point). This seems to be a pretty common way of talking about it (people other than Peterson use this language).

Anyway, Peterson explicitly defines a "lottery" as an act (which he defines as a function from world states to outcomes) whose outcome is risky (which is to say, is determined randomly but with known probability) [I presume by the act's outcome he means the outcome that will actually occur if that act is selected].

Would including something more explicit like this resolve your concerns or do you think that Peterson does things wrong as well (or do you think I'm misunderstanding what Peterson is doing)?

Comment author: Sniffnoy 05 March 2013 05:40:33AM 0 points [-]

Oops, you are absolutely right. (a-b)/|c-d| is meaningful after all. Not sure why I failed to notice that. Thanks for pointing that out.

Comment author: crazy88 05 March 2013 07:02:55AM 0 points [-]

Cool, thanks for letting me know.

Comment author: AlexMennen 05 March 2013 12:41:17AM 1 point [-]

Perhaps worth noting that earlier in the document we defined acts as functions from world states to outcomes so this seems to resolve the second concern somewhat.

What? That's what I thought "acts" meant the first time, before I read the document more thoroughly and decided that you must mean that acts are lotteries. If you are using "act" to refer to functions from world states to outcomes, then the statement that the VNM system only applies to acts is simply false, rather than misleading.

Comment author: crazy88 05 March 2013 02:38:23AM 0 points [-]

Point conceded (both your point and shminux's). Edited for the next update.

Comment author: AlexMennen 04 March 2013 04:44:04PM 1 point [-]

The problem is with the word "acts". Some lotteries might not be achievable by any act, so this phrasing makes it sound like the VNM only applies to the subset of lotteries that is actually possible to achieve. And I realize that you're using the word "act" more specifically than this, but typically, people consider doing the same thing in a different context to be the same "act", even though its consequences may depend on the context. So when I first read the paragraph I quoted after only skimming the rest, it sounded like it was claiming that the VNM system can only describe deontological preferences over actions that don't take context into account, which is, of course, ridiculous.

Also, while it is true that the VNM system defines utility over lotteries, it is fairly trivial to modify it to use utility over outcomes (see first section of this post)

Comment author: crazy88 04 March 2013 08:08:37PM *  0 points [-]

Thanks for the clarification.

Perhaps worth noting that earlier in the document we defined acts as functions from world states to outcomes so this seems to resolve the second concern somewhat (if the context is different then presumably this is represented by the world states being different and so there will be different functions in play and hence different acts).

In terms of the first concern, while VNM may define preferences over all lotteries, there's a sense where in any specific decision scenario, VNM is only appealed to in order to rank the achievable lotteries and not all of them. Of course, however, it's important to note as well that this is only part of the story.

Anyway, I changed this for the next update so as to improve clarity.

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