Comment author: MugaSofer 07 July 2014 06:33:49PM *  -1 points [-]

It bothers some people - for example, you - but not most of us, no. This is the internet. You need to keep the trolls off, and posting things elsewhere is easy if you feel it's necessary.

Still, I'm not sure why it vanished, if Eliezer didn't delete it. That seems much more bother-worthy than it's unpopularity.

Comment author: curi 07 July 2014 10:18:14PM 1 point [-]

I agree. That's exactly what I'm saying. I don't know why or it was deleted or by who, and that bothers me. I am not complaining about unpopularity. I think unpopular (or popular) ideas shouldn't be silently deleted by unknown people for unknown reasons. I think some moderator ought to check the history and see what happened (which is hopefully possible).

Deleting unpopular ideas is a much more common problem (bias) than deleting popular ideas. Both are bad though.

You guys, from your perspective, can regard it as something like "a critic posted some critical ideas. regular posters refuted his points in detailed argument". that's a great thing to keep a record of. if you see it that way, be proud or whatever. why delete it? i don't understand.

I can tell you it was deleted long enough after the discussion had ended that i was no longer checking for new comments. it wasn't deleted to shut the discussion up at the time. which makes it all the more mysterious. can anyone look up what happened?

Comment author: shminux 06 July 2014 08:07:40AM 0 points [-]

Why would it be deleted? Is there any accountability or appeal?

He explained why, didn't he? IANEY, but I suspect that there is no appeal. I assume that the comments people made are visible from their profile, but maybe not. Maybe there is an archived version somewhere online, if you are lucky. Don't hold your breath, though.

Comment author: curi 06 July 2014 08:21:44AM *  2 points [-]

Did you read the quote? He specifically said he was not deleting it, and did not delete it at that time. And he said it wouldn't be deleted. He only deleted some links to it, but said the direct link would continue to work.

Around 50 more comments were added to the discussion after he posted that.

It was deleted some time later. I don't know when. Archive.org doesn't have it.

Does it bother anyone here that (apparently) unpopular ideas are deleted with no reason given, no notice, and no accountability?

Comment author: shminux 06 July 2014 06:08:13AM *  0 points [-]

Deleted posts and comments can still be seen from the user's page.

Comment author: curi 06 July 2014 06:12:58AM *  1 point [-]

Why would it be deleted? Is there any accountability or appeal? Is there any way someone could get me a copy of the discussion? BTW Eliezer specifically wrote in the thread that the page would remain accessible:

Eliezer_Yudkowsky 11 April 2011 07:08:01AM 0 points

Post removed from main and discussion on grounds that I've never seen anything voted down that far before. Page will still be accessible to those who know the address.

Comment author: curi 06 July 2014 05:08:29AM -3 points [-]

I also reviewed previous discussions about mass downvoting and looked for other people who mentioned being the victims of it.

I believe I was a victim of mass downvoting. You could review my history too.

Comment author: curi 06 July 2014 04:35:50AM *  3 points [-]

Hi, an old discussion

http://lesswrong.com/lw/56m/the_conjunction_fallacy_does_not_exist/

gives the error, "The page you requested does not exist"

I have the right link. It's actually still linked from:

http://lesswrong.com/user/curi/submitted/

I wanted to check something from that discussion. As you can see from my submitted page, there were 113 comments. Why doesn't it exist? What's going on? Can someone help?

I didn't find any contact info except a bug tracker that didn't seem to have much activity since 2012, and my first guess is not a software bug. I may well have missed the right place to be asking about this, tell me if so.

Comment author: [deleted] 19 April 2011 02:18:43AM 0 points [-]

Do you understand DD's point that the majority of the time theories are rejected without testing which is in both his books? Testing is only useful when dealing with good explanations.

Bayesians are also seriously concerned with the fact that an infinity of theories are consistent with the evidence. DD evidently doesn't think so, given his comments on Occam's Razor, which he appears to be familiar with only in an old, crude version, but I think that there is a lot in common between his "good explanation" criterion and parsimony considerations.

In response to comment by [deleted] on On Debates with Trolls
Comment author: curi 19 April 2011 02:26:26AM -3 points [-]

We aren't "seriously concerned" because we have solved the problem, and it's not particularly relevant to our approach.

We just bring it up as a criticism of epistemologies that fail to solve the problem... Because they have failed, they should be rejected.

You haven't provided details about your fixed Occam's razor, a specific criticism of any specific thing DD said, a solution to the problem of induction (all epistemologies need one of some sort), or a solution to the infinity of theories problem.

Comment author: Cyan 18 April 2011 09:02:27PM -1 points [-]

How would you do it without Bayes' theorem?

Here's one way.

(It's subject to limitations that do not constrain the Bayesian approach, and as near as I can tell, is mathematically equivalent to a non-informative Bayesian approach when it is applicable, but the author's justification for his procedure is wholly non-Bayesian.)

Comment author: curi 19 April 2011 01:51:05AM -3 points [-]

I think you mixed up Bayes' Theorem and Bayesian Epistemology. The abstract begins:

By representing the range of fair betting odds according to a pair of confidence set estimators, dual probability measures on parameter space called frequentist posteriors secure the coherence of subjective inference without any prior distribution.

They have a problem with a prior distribution, and wish to do without it. That's what I think the paper is about. The abstract does not say "we don't like bayes' theorem and figured out a way to avoid it." Did you have something else in mind? What?

Comment author: jimrandomh 18 April 2011 07:46:11PM 0 points [-]

Probability estimates are not falsifiable.

Probability estimates are essentially the bookkeeping which Bayesians use to keep track of which things they've falsified, and which things they've partially falsified. At the time Popper wrote that, scientists had not yet figured out the rules for using probability correctly; the stuff he was criticizing really was wrong, but it wasn't the same stuff people use today.

Comment author: curi 19 April 2011 01:34:22AM -3 points [-]

How can something be partially falsified? It's either consistent with the evidence or contradicted. This is a dichotomy. To allow partial falsification you have to judge in some other way which has a larger number of outcomes. What way?

Probability estimates are essentially the bookkeeping which Bayesians use to keep track of which things they've falsified, and which things they've partially falsified.

You're saying you started without them, and come up with some in the middle. But how does that work? How do you get started without having any?

the stuff he was criticizing really was wrong, but it wasn't the same stuff people use today.

Changing the math cannot answer any of his non-mathematical criticisms. So his challenge remains.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 18 April 2011 07:57:12PM 0 points [-]

At the time Popper wrote that, scientists had not yet figured out the rules for using probability correctly; the stuff he was criticizing really was wrong, but it wasn't the same stuff people use today.

Is this true? Popper wrote LScD in 1934. Keynes and Ramsey wrote about using probability to handle uncertainty in the 1920s although I don't think anyone paid attention to that work for a few years. I don't know enough about their work in detail to comment on whether or not Popper is taking it into account although I certainly get the impression that he's influenced by Keynes.

Comment author: curi 19 April 2011 01:19:55AM -1 points [-]

The English version of LScD came out in 1959. It wasn't a straight translation; Popper worked on it. In my (somewhat vague) understanding he changed some stuff or at least added some footnotes (and appendices?).

Anyway Popper published plenty of stuff after 1946 including material from the LScD postscript that got split into several books, and also various books where he had the chance to say whatever he wanted. If he thought there was anything important to update he would have. And for example probability gets a lot of discussion in Popper's replies to his critics, and Bayes' theorem in particular comes up some; that's from 1974.

So for example on page 1185 of the Schilpp volume 2, Popper says he never doubted Bayes' theorem but that "it is not generally applicable to hypotheses which form an infinite set".

Comment author: [deleted] 18 April 2011 08:01:01PM 5 points [-]

Bayesian updating, as a method of learning in general, is induction. It's trying to derive knowledge from data.

Only in a sense so broad that Popper can rightly be accused of the very same thing. Bayesians use experience to decide between competing hypotheses. That is the sort of "derive" that Bayesians do. But if that is "deriving", then Popper "derives". David Deutsch, who you know, says the following:

But, in reality, scientific theories are not ‘derived’ from anything. We do not read them in nature, nor does nature write them into us. They are guesses – bold conjectures. Human minds create them by rearranging, combining, altering and adding to existing ideas with the intention of improving upon them. We do not begin with ‘white paper’ at birth, but with inborn expectations and intentions and an innate ability to improve upon them using thought and experience. Experience is indeed essential to science, but its role is different from that supposed by empiricism. It is not the source from which theories are derived. Its main use is to choose between theories that have already been guessed. That is what ‘learning from experience’ is.

I direct you specifically to this sentence:

Experience is indeed essential to science, but its role is different from that supposed by empiricism. It is not the source from which theories are derived. Its main use is to choose between theories that have already been guessed.

This is what Bayesians do. Experience is what Bayesians use to choose between theories which have already been guessed. They do this using Bayes' Theorem. But look back at the first sentence of the passage:

But, in reality, scientific theories are not ‘derived’ from anything. 

Clearly, then, Deutsch does not consider using the data to choose between theories to be "deriving". But Bayesians use the data to choose between theories. Therefore, as Deutsch himself defines it, Bayesians are not "deriving".

The point of this criticism is that to even begin the Bayesian updating process you need probability estimates which are created unscientifically by making them up

Yes, the Bayesians make them up, but notice that Bayesians therefore are not trying to derive them from data - which was your initial criticism above. Moreover, this is not importantly different from a Popperian scientist making up conjectures to test. The Popperian scientist comes up with some conjectures, and then, as Deutsch says, he uses experimental data to "choose between theories that have already been guessed". How exactly does he do that? Typical data does not decisively falsify a hypothesis. There is, just for starters, the possibility of experimental error. So how does one really employ data to choose between competing hypotheses? Bayesians have an answer: they choose on the basis of how well the data fits each hypothesis, which they interpret to mean how probable the data is given the hypothesis. Whether he admits it or not, the Popperian scientist can't help but do something fundamentally the same. He has no choice but to deal with probabilities, because probabilities are all he has.

The Popperian scientist, then, chooses between theories that he has guessed on the basis of the data. Since the data, being uncertain, does not decisively refute either theory but is merely more, or less, probable given the theory, then the Popperian scientist has no choice but to deal with probabilities.  If the Popperian scientist chooses the theory that the data fits best, then he is in effect acting as a Bayesian who has assigned to his competing theories the same prior.

In response to comment by [deleted] on On Debates with Trolls
Comment author: curi 19 April 2011 01:01:41AM -1 points [-]

Where do you get the theories you consider?

Do you understand DD's point that the majority of the time theories are rejected without testing which is in both his books? Testing is only useful when dealing with good explanations.

Do you understand that data alone cannot choose between the infinitely many theories consistent with it, which reach a wide variety of contradictory and opposite conclusions? So Bayesian Updating based on data does not solve the problem of choosing between theories. What does?

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