Comment author: MugaSofer 07 July 2014 06:33:49PM *  -1 points [-]

It bothers some people - for example, you - but not most of us, no. This is the internet. You need to keep the trolls off, and posting things elsewhere is easy if you feel it's necessary.

Still, I'm not sure why it vanished, if Eliezer didn't delete it. That seems much more bother-worthy than it's unpopularity.

Comment author: curi 07 July 2014 10:18:14PM 1 point [-]

I agree. That's exactly what I'm saying. I don't know why or it was deleted or by who, and that bothers me. I am not complaining about unpopularity. I think unpopular (or popular) ideas shouldn't be silently deleted by unknown people for unknown reasons. I think some moderator ought to check the history and see what happened (which is hopefully possible).

Deleting unpopular ideas is a much more common problem (bias) than deleting popular ideas. Both are bad though.

You guys, from your perspective, can regard it as something like "a critic posted some critical ideas. regular posters refuted his points in detailed argument". that's a great thing to keep a record of. if you see it that way, be proud or whatever. why delete it? i don't understand.

I can tell you it was deleted long enough after the discussion had ended that i was no longer checking for new comments. it wasn't deleted to shut the discussion up at the time. which makes it all the more mysterious. can anyone look up what happened?

Comment author: shminux 06 July 2014 08:07:40AM 0 points [-]

Why would it be deleted? Is there any accountability or appeal?

He explained why, didn't he? IANEY, but I suspect that there is no appeal. I assume that the comments people made are visible from their profile, but maybe not. Maybe there is an archived version somewhere online, if you are lucky. Don't hold your breath, though.

Comment author: curi 06 July 2014 08:21:44AM *  2 points [-]

Did you read the quote? He specifically said he was not deleting it, and did not delete it at that time. And he said it wouldn't be deleted. He only deleted some links to it, but said the direct link would continue to work.

Around 50 more comments were added to the discussion after he posted that.

It was deleted some time later. I don't know when. Archive.org doesn't have it.

Does it bother anyone here that (apparently) unpopular ideas are deleted with no reason given, no notice, and no accountability?

Comment author: shminux 06 July 2014 06:08:13AM *  0 points [-]

Deleted posts and comments can still be seen from the user's page.

Comment author: curi 06 July 2014 06:12:58AM *  1 point [-]

Why would it be deleted? Is there any accountability or appeal? Is there any way someone could get me a copy of the discussion? BTW Eliezer specifically wrote in the thread that the page would remain accessible:

Eliezer_Yudkowsky 11 April 2011 07:08:01AM 0 points

Post removed from main and discussion on grounds that I've never seen anything voted down that far before. Page will still be accessible to those who know the address.

Comment author: curi 06 July 2014 04:35:50AM *  3 points [-]

Hi, an old discussion

http://lesswrong.com/lw/56m/the_conjunction_fallacy_does_not_exist/

gives the error, "The page you requested does not exist"

I have the right link. It's actually still linked from:

http://lesswrong.com/user/curi/submitted/

I wanted to check something from that discussion. As you can see from my submitted page, there were 113 comments. Why doesn't it exist? What's going on? Can someone help?

I didn't find any contact info except a bug tracker that didn't seem to have much activity since 2012, and my first guess is not a software bug. I may well have missed the right place to be asking about this, tell me if so.

Comment author: JoshuaZ 18 April 2011 07:57:12PM 0 points [-]

At the time Popper wrote that, scientists had not yet figured out the rules for using probability correctly; the stuff he was criticizing really was wrong, but it wasn't the same stuff people use today.

Is this true? Popper wrote LScD in 1934. Keynes and Ramsey wrote about using probability to handle uncertainty in the 1920s although I don't think anyone paid attention to that work for a few years. I don't know enough about their work in detail to comment on whether or not Popper is taking it into account although I certainly get the impression that he's influenced by Keynes.

Comment author: curi 19 April 2011 01:19:55AM -1 points [-]

The English version of LScD came out in 1959. It wasn't a straight translation; Popper worked on it. In my (somewhat vague) understanding he changed some stuff or at least added some footnotes (and appendices?).

Anyway Popper published plenty of stuff after 1946 including material from the LScD postscript that got split into several books, and also various books where he had the chance to say whatever he wanted. If he thought there was anything important to update he would have. And for example probability gets a lot of discussion in Popper's replies to his critics, and Bayes' theorem in particular comes up some; that's from 1974.

So for example on page 1185 of the Schilpp volume 2, Popper says he never doubted Bayes' theorem but that "it is not generally applicable to hypotheses which form an infinite set".

Comment author: [deleted] 18 April 2011 08:01:01PM 5 points [-]

Bayesian updating, as a method of learning in general, is induction. It's trying to derive knowledge from data.

Only in a sense so broad that Popper can rightly be accused of the very same thing. Bayesians use experience to decide between competing hypotheses. That is the sort of "derive" that Bayesians do. But if that is "deriving", then Popper "derives". David Deutsch, who you know, says the following:

But, in reality, scientific theories are not ‘derived’ from anything. We do not read them in nature, nor does nature write them into us. They are guesses – bold conjectures. Human minds create them by rearranging, combining, altering and adding to existing ideas with the intention of improving upon them. We do not begin with ‘white paper’ at birth, but with inborn expectations and intentions and an innate ability to improve upon them using thought and experience. Experience is indeed essential to science, but its role is different from that supposed by empiricism. It is not the source from which theories are derived. Its main use is to choose between theories that have already been guessed. That is what ‘learning from experience’ is.

I direct you specifically to this sentence:

Experience is indeed essential to science, but its role is different from that supposed by empiricism. It is not the source from which theories are derived. Its main use is to choose between theories that have already been guessed.

This is what Bayesians do. Experience is what Bayesians use to choose between theories which have already been guessed. They do this using Bayes' Theorem. But look back at the first sentence of the passage:

But, in reality, scientific theories are not ‘derived’ from anything. 

Clearly, then, Deutsch does not consider using the data to choose between theories to be "deriving". But Bayesians use the data to choose between theories. Therefore, as Deutsch himself defines it, Bayesians are not "deriving".

The point of this criticism is that to even begin the Bayesian updating process you need probability estimates which are created unscientifically by making them up

Yes, the Bayesians make them up, but notice that Bayesians therefore are not trying to derive them from data - which was your initial criticism above. Moreover, this is not importantly different from a Popperian scientist making up conjectures to test. The Popperian scientist comes up with some conjectures, and then, as Deutsch says, he uses experimental data to "choose between theories that have already been guessed". How exactly does he do that? Typical data does not decisively falsify a hypothesis. There is, just for starters, the possibility of experimental error. So how does one really employ data to choose between competing hypotheses? Bayesians have an answer: they choose on the basis of how well the data fits each hypothesis, which they interpret to mean how probable the data is given the hypothesis. Whether he admits it or not, the Popperian scientist can't help but do something fundamentally the same. He has no choice but to deal with probabilities, because probabilities are all he has.

The Popperian scientist, then, chooses between theories that he has guessed on the basis of the data. Since the data, being uncertain, does not decisively refute either theory but is merely more, or less, probable given the theory, then the Popperian scientist has no choice but to deal with probabilities.  If the Popperian scientist chooses the theory that the data fits best, then he is in effect acting as a Bayesian who has assigned to his competing theories the same prior.

In response to comment by [deleted] on On Debates with Trolls
Comment author: curi 19 April 2011 01:01:41AM -1 points [-]

Where do you get the theories you consider?

Do you understand DD's point that the majority of the time theories are rejected without testing which is in both his books? Testing is only useful when dealing with good explanations.

Do you understand that data alone cannot choose between the infinitely many theories consistent with it, which reach a wide variety of contradictory and opposite conclusions? So Bayesian Updating based on data does not solve the problem of choosing between theories. What does?

Comment author: [deleted] 18 April 2011 04:51:36PM 1 point [-]

There was nothing in Open Society and its Enemies, Objective Knowledge, Popper Selections, or Conjectures and Refutations, nor in any of the books on Popper that I located. The one exception I found was in The Logic of Scientific Discovery, and the mentions of Bayes are purely technical discussion of the theorem (with which Popper, reasonably enough, has no problem), with no criticism of Bayesians. In summary, I found no critiques by Popper of Bayesians after going through the indices of Popper's main works as you recommended. I did find mention of Bayes, but it was a mention in which Popper did not criticize Bayes or Bayesians.

Nor were Bayes or Bayesians mentioned anywhere in David Deutsch's book The Beginning of Infiinity.

So I return to my earlier request:

I asked you to critique Bayesian updating with concrete examples.

I have repeatedly requested this, and in reply been given either condescension, or a fantastically obscure and seemingly self-contradictory response, or a major misinterpretation of my request, or a recommendation that I look to Popper, which recommendation I have followed with no results.

In response to comment by [deleted] on On Debates with Trolls
Comment author: curi 18 April 2011 07:26:58PM *  -2 points [-]

I think you're problem is you don't understand what the issues at stake are, so you don't know what you're trying to find.

You said:

anything written by Popper which mentions the word "Bayes" or "Bayesian" at all. Or that discusses Bayes' equation.

But then when you found a well known book by Popper which does have those words, and which does discuss Bayes' equation, you were not satisfied. You asked for something which wasn't actually what you wanted. That is not my fault.

You also said:

You are changing the subject. I never asked you to summarize Popper's solution to the problem of induction.

But you don't seem to understand that Popper's solution to the problem of induction is the same topic. You don't know what you're looking for. It wasn't a change of topic. (Hence I thought we should discuss this. But you refused. I'm not sure how you expect to make progress when you refuse to discuss the topic the other guy thinks is crucial to continuing.)

Bayesian updating, as a method of learning in general, is induction. It's trying to derive knowledge from data. Popper's criticisms of induction, in general, apply. And his solution solves the underlying problem rendering Bayesian updating unnecessary even if it wasn't wrong. (Of course, as usual, it's right when applied narrowly to certain mathematical problems. It's wrong when extended out of that context to be used for other purposes, e.g. to try to solve the problem of induction.)

So, question: what do you think you're looking for? There is tons of stuff about probability in various Popper books including chapter 8 of LScD titled "probability". There is tons of explanation about the problem of induction, and why support doesn't work, in various Popper books. Bayesian updating is a method of positively supporting theories; Popper criticized all such methods and his criticisms apply. In what way is that not what you wanted? What do you want?

So for example I opened to a random page in that chapter and found, p 183, start of section 66, the first sentence is:

Probability estimates are not falsifiable.

This is a criticism of the Bayesian approach as unscientific. It's not specifically about the Bayesian approach in that it applies to various non-Bayesian probabilistic approaches (whatever those may be. can you think of any other approaches besides Bayesian epistemology that you think this is targeted at? How would you do it without Bayes' theorem?). In any case it is a criticism and it applies straightforwardly to Bayesian epistemology. It's not the only criticism.

The point of this criticism is that to even begin the Bayesian updating process you need probability estimates which are created unscientifically by making them up (no, making up a "prior" which assigns all of them at once, in a way vague enough that you can't even use it in real life without "estimating" arbitrarily, doesn't mean you haven't just made them up).

EDIT: read the first 2 footnotes in section 81 of LScD, plus section 81 itself. And note that the indexer did not miss this but included it...

Comment author: JoshuaZ 18 April 2011 02:04:44AM 0 points [-]

You've already been told that you made that the point of Jim's remark was about the emotionalism in your remarks, not about the correctness of your arguments. In that context, your sibling comment is utterly irrelevant. The fact that you still haven't gotten that point is of course further evidence of that problem. We are well past the point where there's any substantial likelyhood of productive conversation. Please go away. If you feel a need to come back, do so later, a few months from now when you are confident you can do so without either insulting people, deliberately trolling, and are willing to actually listen to what people here have to say.

Comment author: curi 18 April 2011 03:00:58AM -2 points [-]

So you say things that are false, and then you think the appropriate follow up is to rant about me?

Comment author: JoshuaZ 15 April 2011 09:45:50PM *  2 points [-]

I know what he thinks: he agrees with me.

I'm skeptical of the claim about Deutsch. Why not actually test it? A Popperian should try to poke holes in his ideas. Note also that you seem to be missing Jim's point: Jim is making an observation about the level of emotionalism in your argument, not the correctness. These are distinct issues.

As another suggestion, we could take a bunch of people who have epistemologies that are radically different from either Popper or Bayes. From my friends who aren't involved in these issues, I could easily get an Orthodox Jew, a religious Muslim, and a conspiracy theorist. That also handles your concern about a sample size of 1. Other options include other Orthodox Jews including one who supports secular monarchies as the primary form of government, and a math undergrad who is a philosophical skeptic. Or if you want to have some real fun, we could get some regulars from the Flat Earth Forum. A large number of them self-identify as "zetetic" which in this context means something like only accepting evidence that is from one's own sensory observation.

Not a single one of them considers it plausible my position on this stuff is a matter of emotions.

Jim is not suggesting that your position is "a matter of emotions"- he's suggesting that you are being emotional. Note that these aren't the same thing. For example, one could hypothetically have a conversation between a biologist and a creationist about evolution and the biologist could get quite angry with the creationist remaining calm. In that case, the biologist believes what they do due to evidence, but they could still be unproductively emotional about how they present that evidence.

Comment author: curi 17 April 2011 04:26:34AM -2 points [-]

From sibling:

Maybe by pointing it out in this case, you will be able to learn something. Do you think so?

Shall I take this as a no?

Comment author: [deleted] 16 April 2011 06:58:22PM *  0 points [-]

They have put fallacious behaviour in quotes to indicate that they don't agree the fallacy exists. I could be wrong, however, as I am just going from the abstract and maybe the authors do claim it exists. However they seem to be saying it is just an artifact of hints. I'll need to read the paper to understand better. Maybe I'll end up disagreeing with the authors.

Textbook arguments are often wrong. Consider quantum physics and the Copenhagen Interpretation for example. And one way of arguing against CI is from a philosophical perspective (it's instrumentalist and a bad explanation).

In response to comment by [deleted] on On Debates with Trolls
Comment author: curi 16 April 2011 07:43:08PM -2 points [-]

I looked through the whole paper and don't think you're wrong.

I don't agree with the hints paper in various respects. But it disagrees with the conjunction fallacy and argues that conjunction isn't the real issue and the biases explanation isn't right either. So certainly there is disagreement on these issues.

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