Comment author: Larks 31 July 2013 12:25:22PM 4 points [-]

"The antispeciesist claims that, other things being equal, conscious beings of equivalent sentience deserve equal care and respect."

Any speciesist is happy to agree with that. She simply thinks that species is one of the things that has to be equal.

Comment author: davidpearce 31 July 2013 01:21:46PM *  2 points [-]

Larks, all humans, even anencephalic babies, are more sentient than all Anopheles mosquitoes. So when human interests conflict irreconcilably with the interests of Anopheles mosquitoes, there is no need to conduct a careful case-by-case study of their comparative sentience. Simply identifying species membership alone is enough. By contrast, most pigs are more sentient than some humans. Unlike the antispeciesist, the speciesist claims that the interests of the human take precedence over the interests of the pig simply in virtue of species membership. (cf. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2226647/Nickolas-Coke-Boy-born-brain-dies-3-year-miracle-life.html :heart-warming yes, but irrational altruism - by antispeciesist criteria at any rate.) I try and say a bit more (without citing the Daily Mail) here: http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/pearce20130726

Comment author: Vaniver 29 July 2013 10:51:12AM 3 points [-]

Vanvier, do human infants and toddlers deserve moral consideration primarily on account of their potential to become rational adult humans? Or are they valuable in themselves?

My intuitions say the former. I would not be averse to a quick end for young human children who are not going to live to see their third birthday.

But their lack of cognitive sophistication doesn't make them any less sentient.

Agreed, mostly. (I think it might be meaningful to refer to syntax or math as 'senses' in the context of subjective experience and I suspect that abstract reasoning and subjective sensation of all emotions, including pain, are negatively correlated. The first weakly points towards valuing their experience less, but the second strongly points towards valuing their experience more.)

Comment author: davidpearce 29 July 2013 11:56:58AM 7 points [-]

Vanvier, you say that you wouldn't be averse to a quick end for young human children who are not going to live to see their third birthday. What about intellectually handicapped children with potentially normal lifespans whose cognitive capacities will never surpass a typical human toddler or mature pig?

Comment author: Vaniver 28 July 2013 09:49:11PM *  12 points [-]

None of the above criteria except (in some empirical cases) H imply that human infants or late stage demented people should be given more ethical consideration than cows, pigs or chickens.

This strikes me as a very impatient assessment. The human infant will turn into a human, and the piglet will turn into a pig, and so down the road A through E will suggest treating them differently.

Similarly, the demented can be given the reverse treatment (though it works differently); they once deserved moral standing, and thus are extended moral standing because the extender can expect that when their time comes, they will be treated by society in about the same way as society treated its elders when they were young. (This mostly falls under B, except the reciprocation is not direct.)

(Looking at the comments, Manfred makes a similar argument more vividly over here.)

Comment author: davidpearce 29 July 2013 10:18:42AM 11 points [-]

Vanvier, do human infants and toddlers deserve moral consideration primarily on account of their potential to become rational adult humans? Or are they valuable in themselves? Young human children with genetic disorders are given love, care and respect - even if the nature of their illness means they will never live to see their third birthday. We don't hold their lack of "potential" against them. Likewise, pigs are never going to acquire generative syntax or do calculus. But their lack of cognitive sophistication doesn't make them any less sentient.

Comment author: jkaufman 28 July 2013 08:52:51PM *  3 points [-]

I think suffering is qualitatively different when it's accompanied by some combination I don't fully understand of intelligence, self awareness, preferences, etc. So yes, humans are not the only animals that can suffer, but they're the only animals whose suffering is morally relevant.

Comment author: davidpearce 28 July 2013 11:15:59PM *  17 points [-]

jkaufman, the dimmer-switch metaphor of consciousness is intuitively appealing. But consider some of the most intense experiences that humans can undergo, e.g. orgasm, raw agony, or blind panic. Such intense experiences are characterised by a breakdown of any capacity for abstract rational thought or reflective self-awareness. Neuroscanning evidence, too, suggests that much of our higher brain function effectively shuts down during the experience of panic or orgasm. Contrast this intensity of feeling with the subtle and rarefied phenomenology involved in e.g. language production, solving mathematical equations, introspecting one's thoughts-episodes, etc - all those cognitive capacities that make mature members of our species distinctively human. For sure, this evidence is suggestive, not conclusive. But the supportive evidence converges with e.g. microelectrode studies using awake human subjects. Such studies suggest the limbic brain structures that generate our most intense experiences are evolutionarily very ancient. Also, the same genes, same neurotransmitter pathways and same responses to noxious stimuli are found in our fellow vertebrates. In view of how humans treat nonhumans, I think we ought to be worried that humans could be catastrophically mistaken about nonhuman animal sentience.

Comment author: Lukas_Gloor 24 July 2013 06:23:01PM *  9 points [-]

The general consensus is that at this stage, it's most important to raise awareness about wild animal suffering so future generations are likely to do something about the issue. This is done by spreading anti-speciesism and by countering the view that whatever is natural is somehow good or that nature "has a plan". It seems especially important to try to change the paradigm in ecology and conservation biology in order to focus more attention on the largest source of suffering on the planet. Some altruists also focus on this issue because of concerns about space colonisation, for instance, future humans might want to colonise the universe with Darwinian life or do ancestor simulations, which would be very bad from an anti-speciesist point of view.

Some imagined long-term solutions for the problem of wild animal suffering range from a welfare state for elephants to reprogramming predators to reducing biomass, but right now people are mainly trying to raise awareness for more intuitive interventions such as vaccinating wild animals against diseases (which is already done in some cases for the benefit of humans), not reintroducing predators to regions for human aesthetic reasons, and helping individual animals in distress as opposed to obeying the common anti-interventionist policies in wildlife parks.

Comment author: davidpearce 27 July 2013 11:26:08AM 1 point [-]

Obamacare for elephants probably doesn't rank highly in the priorities of most lesswrongers. But from an anthropocentric perspective, isn't an analogous scenario for human beings - i.e. to stay free living but not "wild" - the most utopian outcome if the MIRI conception of an Intelligence Explosion comes to pass?

In response to comment by Xodarap on Why Eat Less Meat?
Comment author: RobbBB 24 July 2013 06:10:30PM *  -1 points [-]

Actually, I'm an eliminativist about phenomenal states. I wouldn't be completely surprised to learn that the illusion of phenomenal states is restricted to humans, but I don't think that this illusion is necessary for one to be a moral patient. Suppose we encountered an alien species whose computational substrate and architecture was so exotic that we couldn't rightly call anything it experienced 'pain'. Nonetheless it might experience something suitably pain-like, in its coarse-grained functional roles, that we would be monsters to start torturing members of this species willy-nilly.

My views about non-human animals are similar. I suspect their psychological states are so exotic that we would never recognize them as pain, joy, sorrow, surprise, etc. (I'd guess this is more true for the positive states than the negative ones?) if we merely glimpsed their inner lives directly. But the similarity is nonetheless sufficient for our taking their alien mental lives seriously, at least in some cases.

So, I suspect that phenomenal pain as we know it is strongly tied to the evolution of abstract thought, complex self-models, and complex models of other minds. But I'm open to non-humans having experiences that aren't technically pain but that are pain-like enough to count for moral purposes.

In response to comment by RobbBB on Why Eat Less Meat?
Comment author: davidpearce 25 July 2013 11:22:14AM 2 points [-]

RobbBB, in what sense can phenomenal agony be an "illusion"? If your pain becomes so bad that abstract thought is impossible, does your agony - or the "illusion of agony" - somehow stop? The same genes, same neurotransmitters, same anatomical pathways and same behavioural responses to noxious stimuli are found in humans and the nonhuman animals in our factory-farms. A reasonable (but unproven) inference is that factory-farmed nonhumans endure misery - or the "illusion of misery" as the eliminativist puts it - as do abused human infants and toddlers.

Comment author: drnickbone 24 July 2013 12:12:32PM *  0 points [-]

This seems to address one of my points raised here.

Self-mutilation is certainly a proxy for very low or negative quality of life, even if directly suicidal behaviour is not available (because the animal can't form a concept of suicide as a way out). If the docking, castrating etc. is to prevent mutilation of other nearby animals, that's a bit different of course.

I'm very wary of deeming any life to be of negative quality unless there is very compelling evidence that the life-form itself feels the same way.

Also, see my other comment: what happens if a few changes to farming practice can make the quality of life positive, even if just barely so? Does the objection to meat really go away?

Comment author: davidpearce 24 July 2013 01:43:03PM 3 points [-]

drnickbone, the argument that meat-eating can be ethically justified if conditions of factory-farmed animals are improved so their lives are "barely" worth living is problematic. As it stands, the argument justifies human cannibalism. Breeding human babies for the pot is potentially ethically justified because the infants in question wouldn't otherwise exist - although they are factory- farmed, runs this thought-experiment, their lives are at least "barely" worth living because they don't self-mutilate or show the grosser signs of psychological trauma. No, I'm sure you don't buy this argument - but then we shouldn't buy it for nonhuman animals either.

In response to comment by BlueSun on Why Eat Less Meat?
Comment author: Ruairi 23 July 2013 10:32:30PM *  3 points [-]

Have you read much about the lives of farm animals? In general once people do I think they agree that these are lives that are not worth living. There's plenty of footage on the web too.

In response to comment by Ruairi on Why Eat Less Meat?
Comment author: davidpearce 24 July 2013 10:18:13AM 8 points [-]

Indeed so. Factory-farmed nonhuman animals are debeaked, tail-docked, castrated (etc) to prevent them from mutilating themselves and each other. Self-mutilitary behaviour in particular suggests an extraordinarily severe level of chronic distress. Compare how desperate human beings must be before we self-mutilate. A meat-eater can (correctly) respond that the behavioural and neuroscientific evidence that factory-farmed animals suffer a lot is merely suggestive, not conclusive. But we're not trying to defeat philosophical scepticism, just act on the best available evidence. Humans who persuade ourselves that factory-farmed animals are happy are simply kidding ourselves - we're trying to rationalise the ethically indefensible.

Comment author: SaidAchmiz 30 June 2013 04:15:48PM 1 point [-]

Humanity's only justification of exploiting and killing nonhuman animals is that we enjoy the taste of their flesh.

It seems to me like a far more relevant justification for exploiting and killing nonhuman animals is "and why shouldn't we do this...?", which is the same justification we use for exploiting and killing ore-bearing rocks. Which is to say, there's no moral problem with doing this, so it needs no "justification".

Pigs, for example, are at least as intelligent as prelinguistic toddlers; but are they less sentient? The same genes, neural processes, anatomical pathways and behavioural responses to noxious stimuli are found in pigs and toddlers alike. So I think the burden of proof here lies on meat-eating critics who deny any equivalence.

I make it clear in this post that I don't deny the equivalence, and don't think that very young children have the moral worth of cognitively developed humans. (The optimal legality of Doing Bad Things to them is a slightly more complicated matter.)

we don't regard, say, humans with infantile Tay-Sachs who lack the potential to become cognitively mature adults as any less worthy of love, care and respect than heathy toddlers.

Well, I certainly do.

Apt comparison or otherwise, creating nonhuman-animal-friendly intelligence is going to be an immense challenge.

Eh...? Expand on this, please; I'm quite unsure what you mean here.

Comment author: davidpearce 30 June 2013 05:48:48PM 2 points [-]

SaidAchmiz, to treat exploiting and killing nonhuman animals as ethically no different from "exploiting and killing ore-bearing rocks" does not suggest a cognitively ambitious level of empathetic understanding of other subjects of experience. Isn't there an irony in belonging to an organisation dedicated to the plight of sentient but cognitively humble beings in the imminent face of vastly superior intelligence and claiming that the plight of sentient but cognitively humble beings in the face of vastly superior intelligence is of no ethical consequence whatsoever? Insofar as we want a benign outcome for humans, I'd have thought that the computational equivalent of Godlike capacity for perspective-taking is precisely what we should be aiming for.

Comment author: SaidAchmiz 30 June 2013 01:02:02AM 1 point [-]

Stuart Rachels, Vegetarianism, in The Oxford Handbook of Animal Ethics, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2012, pp. 877–905.

So, I've just finished reading this one.

To say that I found it unconvincing would be quite the understatement.

For one, Rachels seems entirely unwilling to even take seriously any objections to his moral premises or argument (he, again, takes the idea that we should care about animal suffering as given). He dismisses the strongest and most interesting objections outright; he selects the weakest objections to rebut, and condescendingly adds that "Resistance to [such] arguments usually stems from emotion, not reason. ... Moreover, they [opponents of his argument] want to justify their next hamburger."

Rachels then launches into a laundry list of other arguments against eating factory farmed animals, not based on a moral concern for animals. It seems that factory farming is bad in literally every way! It's bad for animals, it's bad for people, it causes diseases, eating meat is bad for our health, and more, and more.

(I'm always wary of such claims. When someone tells you thing A has bad effect X, you listen with concern; when they add that oh yeah, it also had bad effect Y! And Z! And W! ... and then you discover that their political/ideological alignment is "opponent of thing A"... suspicion creeps in. Can eating meat really just be universally bad, bad in every way, irredeemably bad so as to be completely unmotivated? Well, there's no law of nature that says that can't be the case (e.g. eating uranium probably has no upside), but I'm inclined to treat such claims with skepticism, and, in any case, I'd prefer each aspect of meat-eating to be argued against separately, such that I can evaluate them individually, not be faced with a shotgun barrage of everything at once.)

Incidentally, I find the "factory farming is detrimental to local human populations" argument much more convincing than any of the others, certainly far more so than the animal-suffering argument. If the provided facts are accurate, then that's the most salient case for stopping the practice — or, preferably, reforming it so as to mitigate the environmental and public-health impact.

I assign the "eating meat is bad for you" argument negligible weight. The one universal truth I've observed about nutrition claims is that finding someone else who's making the opposite claim is trivial. (The corollary is that generalizing nutritional findings to all humans in all circumstances is nigh-impossible.) Red meat reduces lifespan? But the peoples of the Caucasus highlands eat almost nothing but red meat, and they've got some of the longest lifespans in the world. The citations in this section, incidentally, amount to "page so-and-so of some book" and "a study". I can find "a study" that proves pretty much any nutritional claim. Thumbs down. (Vegetarians should really stay away from human-health arguments. It never makes them look good.)

Of the rest of the arguments Rachels makes, I found "industrial farming is worse than the Holocaust" (yes, he really claims this, making it clear that he means it) particularly ludicrous. Obviously, this argument is made with the express intent of being provocative; but as it does seem that Rachels genuinely believe it to be true, I can't help but conclude that here is a person who is exemplifying one of the most egregious failure modes of naive utilitarianism. (How many chickens would I sacrifice to save my great-grandfather from the Nazis? N, where N is any number. This seems to argue either for rejecting straightforward aggregation of value or for assigning chickens a value of 0.)

Comment author: davidpearce 30 June 2013 10:21:30AM 3 points [-]

SaidAchmiz, one difference between factory farming and the Holocaust is that the Nazis believed in the existence of an international conspiracy of the Jews to destroy the Aryan people. Humanity's only justification of exploiting and killing nonhuman animals is that we enjoy the taste of their flesh. No one believes that factory-farmed nonhuman animals have done "us" any harm. Perhaps the parallel with the (human) Holocaust fails for another reason. Pigs, for example, are at least as intelligent as prelinguistic toddlers; but are they less sentient? The same genes, neural processes, anatomical pathways and behavioural responses to noxious stimuli are found in pigs and toddlers alike. So I think the burden of proof here lies on meat-eating critics who deny any equivalence. A third possible reason for denying the parallel with the Holocaust is the issue of potential. Pigs (etc) lack the variant of the FOXP2 gene implicated in generative syntax. In consequence, pigs will never match the cognitive capacities of many but not all adult humans. The problem with this argument is that we don't regard, say, humans with infantile Tay-Sachs who lack the potential to become cognitively mature adults as any less worthy of love, care and respect than heathy toddlers. Indeed the Nazi treatment of congenitally handicapped humans (the "euthanasia" program) is often confused with the Holocaust, for which it provided many of the technical personnel. A fourth reason to deny the parallel with the human Holocaust is that it's offensive to Jewish people. This unconformable parallel has been drawn by some Jewish writers. "An eternal Treblinka", for example, was made by Isaac Bashevis Singer - the Jewish-American Nobel laureate. Apt comparison or otherwise, creating nonhuman-animal-friendly intelligence is going to be an immense challenge.

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