Actually in the case of removing all oxygen atoms from Earth's gravity well, not necessarily. The AI might decide that the most expedient method is to persuade all the humans that the sun's about to go nova, construct some space elevators and Orion Heavy Lifters, pump the first few nines of ocean water up into orbit, freeze it into a thousand-mile-long hollow cigar with a fusion rocket on one end, load the colony ship with all the carbon-based life it can find, and point the nose at some nearby potentially-habitable star. Under this scenario, it would be indifferent to our actual prospects for survival, but gain enough advantage by our willing cooperation to justify the effort of constructing an evacuation plan that can stand up to scientific analysis, and a vehicle which can actually propel the oxygenated mass out to stellar escape velocity to keep it from landing back on the surface.
For problem 1, in the language of the blackmail posts, because the tactic omega uses to fill box 2,
TDT-sim.box1,box2=(<F,T> <T,T>) -> Omega.box2=(1M, 0)
depends on TDT-sim's decision, because Omega has already decided, and because Omega didn't make its decision known, a TDT agent presented with this problem is at an epistemic disadvantage relative to Omega: TDT can't react to Omega's actual decision, because it won't know Omega's actual decision until it knows it's own actual decision, at which point TDT can't further react. This epistemic disadvantage doesn't need to be enforced temporally; even if TDT knows Omega's source code, if TDT has limited simulation resources, it might not practically be able to compute Omega's actual decision any way but via Omega's dependence on TDT's decision.
any other agent who is not running TDT ... will be able to re-construct the chain of logic and reason that the simulation one-boxed and so box B contains the $1 million
There aren't other ways for an agent to be at an epistemic disadvantage relative to Omega in this problem than by being TDT? Could you construct an agent which was itself disadvantaged relative to TDT?
Could you construct an agent which was itself disadvantaged relative to TDT?
"Take only the box with $1000."
Which itself is inferior to "Take no box."
I'm assuming the 80% are capable of killing the 20% unless the AI interferes. That's part of the thought experiment. It's not unreasonable, since they are 4 times as numerous. But if you find this problematic, suppose it's 99% killing 1% at a time. It doesn't really matter.
My point is that we currently have methods of preventing this that don't require an AI, and which do pretty well. Why do we need the AI to do it? Or more specifically, why should we reject an AI that won't, but may do other useful things?
If the resources are so scarce that dividing them is so important that even CEV-s agree on the necessity of killing, then again, I prefer humans to decide who gets them.
The resources are not scarce at all. But, there's no consensus of CEVs. The CEVs of 80% want to kill the rest. The CEVs of 20% obviously don't want to be killed. Because there's no consensus, your version of CEV would not interfere, and the 80% would be free to kill the 20%.
No. CEV does not updates anyone's beliefs. It is calculated by extrapolating values in the presence of full knowledge and sufficient intelligence.
I meant that the AI that implements your version of CEV would forcibly update people's actual beliefs to match what it CEV-extrapolated for them. Sorry for the confusion.
As I said elsewhere, if a person's beliefs are THAT incompatible with truth, I'm ok with ignoring their volition. Note, that their CEV is undefined in this case. But I don't believe there exist such people (excluding totally insane).
A case could be made that many millions of religious "true believers" have un-updatable 0/1 probabilities. And so on.
Your solution is to not give them a voice in the CEV at all. Which is great for the rest of us - our CEV will include some presumably reduced term for their welfare, but they don't get to vote on things. This is something I would certainly support in a FAI (regardless of CEV), just as I would support using CEV<few people + me> or even CEV<few people like me in crucial respects> to CEV<everyone>.
The only difference between us then is that I estimate there to be many such people. If you believed there were many such people, would you modify your solution, or is ignoring them however many they are fine by you?
PD reasoning says you should cooperate (assuming cooperation is precommittable).
As I said before, this reasoning is inapplicable, because this situation is nothing like a PD.
- The PD reasoning to cooperate only applies in case of iterated PD, whereas creating a singleton AI is a single game.
- Unlike PD, the payoffs are different between players, and players are not sure of each other's payoffs in each scenario. (E.g., minor/weak players are more likely to cooperate than big ones that are more likely to succeed if they defect.)
- The game is not instantaneous, so players can change their strategy based on how other players play. When they do so they can transfer value gained by themselves or by other players (e.g. join research alliance 1, learn its research secrets, then defect and sell the secrets to alliance 2).
- It is possible to form alliances, which gain by "defecting" as a group. In PD, players cannot discuss alliances or trade other values to form them before choosing how to play.
- There are other games going on between players, so they already have knowledge and opinions and prejudices about each other, and desires to cooperate with certain players and not others. Certain alliances will form naturally, others won't.
adoption of total transparency for everybody of all governmental and military matters.
This counts as very weak evidence because it proves it's at least possible to achieve this, yes. (If all players very intensively inspect all other players to make sure a secret project isn't being hidden anywhere - they'd have to recruit a big chunk of the workforce just to watch over all the rest.)
But the probability of this happening in the real world, between all players, as they scramble to be the first to build an apocalyptic new weapon, is so small it's not even worth discussion time. (Unless you disagree, of course.) I'm not convinced by this that it's an easier problem to solve than that of building AGI or FAI or CEV.
Because there's no consensus, your version of CEV would not interfere, and the 80% would be free to kill the 20%.
There may be a distinction between "the AI will not prevent the 80% from killing the 20%" and "nothing will prevent the 80% from killing the 20%" that is getting lost in your phrasing. I am not convinced that the math doesn't make them equivalent, in the long run - but I'm definitely not convinced otherwise.
I think we could generalise problem 2 to be problematic for any decision theory XDT:
There are 10 boxes, numbered 1 to 10. You may only take one. Omega has (several times) run a simulated XDT agent on this problem. It then put a prize in the box which it determined was least likely to be taken by such an agent - or, in the case of a tie, in the box with the lowest index.
If agent X follows XDT, it has at best a 10% chance of winning. Any sufficiently resourceful YDT agent, however, could run a simulated XDT agent themselves, and figure out what Omega's choice was without getting into an infinite loop.
Therefore, YDT performs better than XDT on this problem.
If I'm right, we may have shown the impossibility of a "best' decision theory, no matter how meta you get (in a close analogy to Godelian incompleteness). If I'm wrong, what have I missed?
If I'm right, we may have shown the impossibility of a "best' decision theory, no matter how meta you get (in a close analogy to Godelian incompleteness). If I'm wrong, what have I missed?
I would say that any such problem doesn't show that there is no best decision theory, it shows that that class of problem cannot be used in the ranking.
Edited to add: Unless, perhaps, one can show that an instantiation of the problem with particular choice of (in this case decision theory, but whatever is varied) is particularly likely to be encountered.
The right place to introduce the separation is not in between TDT and TDT-prime, but in between TDT-prime's output and TDT-prime's decision. If its output is a strategy, rather than a number of boxes, then that strategy can include a byte-by-byte comparison; and if TDT and TDT-prime both do it that way, then they both win as much as possible.
But doesn't that make cliquebots, in general?
Please clarify the reason for your sidewaysvote.
On the one hand a real distinction which makes a huge difference in feasibility. On the other hand, either way we're boned, so it makes not a lot of difference in the context of the original question (as I understand it). On balance, it's a cute digression but still a digression, and so I'm torn.
Wait, are we talking O2 molecules in the atmosphere, or all oxygen atoms in Earth's gravity well?
I wish I could vote you up and down at the same time.
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