Comment author: MrHen 12 February 2010 09:20:16PM *  0 points [-]

I suppose it is true that some people have intuitions that persist in leading them astray even when the probability is set to %100. In that sense it may still have some value if it helps to isolate and illuminate these biases.

My objection here doesn’t have to do with whether it is reasonable for Omega to possess such powers but with the over-simplification of the dilemma to the point where it is trivial.

Perhaps I can clarify: I specifically intended to simplify the dilemma to the point where it was trivial. There are a few reasons for this, but the primary reason is so I can take the trivial example expressed here, tweak it, and see what happens.

This is not intended to be a solution to any other scenario in which Omega is involved. It is intended to make sure that we all agree that this is correct.

Comment author: dv82matt 12 February 2010 10:01:45PM 0 points [-]

I’m finding "correct" to be a loaded term here. It is correct in the sense that your conclusions follow from your premises, but in my view it bears only a superficial resemblance to Newcomb’s problem. Omega is not defined the way you defined it in Newcomb-like problems and the resulting difference is not trivial.

To really get at the core dilemma of Newcomb’s problem in detail one needs to attempt to work out the equilibrium accuracy (that is the level of accuracy required to make one-boxing and two-boxing have equal expected utility) not just arbitrarily set the accuracy to the upper limit where it is easy to work out that one-boxing wins.

Comment author: byrnema 12 February 2010 06:34:05PM *  1 point [-]

I voted this comment down, and would like to explain why.

Omega can have various properties as needed to simplify various thought experiments

Right, we don't want people distracted by whether Omega's prediction could be incorrect in their case or whether the solution should involve tricking Omega, etc. We say that Omega is a perfect predictor not because it's so very reasonable for him to be a perfect predictor, but so that people won't get distracted in those directions.

If Omega were a perfect predictor then the whole dilemma inherent in Newcomb-like problems ceases to exist and that short circuits the entire point of posing those types of problems.

We must disagree about what is the heart of the dilemma. How can it be all about whether Omega is wrong with some fractional probability? Rather it's about whether logic (2-boxing seems logical) and winning are at odds. Or perhaps whether determinism and choice is at odds, if you are operating outside a deterministic world-view. Or perhaps a third thing, but nothing --in this problem -- about what kinds of Omega powers are reasonable or possible. Omega is just a device being used to set up the dilemma.

Comment author: dv82matt 12 February 2010 08:48:55PM 1 point [-]

First, thanks for explaining your down vote and thereby giving me an opportunity to respond.

We say that Omega is a perfect predictor not because it's so very reasonable for him to be a perfect predictor, but so that people won't get distracted in those directions.

The problem is that it is not a fair simplification, it disrupts the dilemma in such a way as to render it trivial. If you set the accuracy of the prediction to %100 many of the other specific details of the problem become largely irrelevant. For example you could then put $999,999.99 into box A and it would still be better to one-box.

It’s effectively the same thing as lowering the amount in box A to zero or raising the amount in box B to infinity. And one could break the problem in the other direction by lowering the accuracy of the prediction to %50 or equalizing the amount in both boxes.

We must disagree about what is the heart of the dilemma. How can it be all about whether Omega is wrong with some fractional probability?

It’s because the probability of a correct prediction must be between %50 and %100 or it breaks the structure of the problem in the sense that it makes the answer trivial to work out.

Rather it's about whether logic (2-boxing seems logical) and winning are at odds.

I suppose it is true that some people have intuitions that persist in leading them astray even when the probability is set to %100. In that sense it may still have some value if it helps to isolate and illuminate these biases.

Or perhaps whether determinism and choice is at odds, if you are operating outside a deterministic world-view. Or perhaps a third thing, but nothing --in this problem -- about what kinds of Omega powers are reasonable or possible. Omega is just a device being used to set up the dilemma.

My objection here doesn’t have to do with whether it is reasonable for Omega to possess such powers but with the over-simplification of the dilemma to the point where it is trivial.

Comment author: dv82matt 12 February 2010 08:28:51AM 0 points [-]

The basic concept behind Omega is that it is (a) a perfect predictor

I disagree, Omega can have various properties as needed to simplify various thought experiments, but for the purpose of Newcomb-like problems Omega is a very good predictor and may even have a perfect record but is not a perfect predictor in the sense of being perfect in principle or infallible.

If Omega were a perfect predictor then the whole dilemma inherent in Newcomb-like problems ceases to exist and that short circuits the entire point of posing those types of problems.

Comment author: wedrifid 11 September 2009 08:50:53PM 1 point [-]

Good question. And with Charlie known to be operating exactly as defined then yes, I would one box. I wouldn't call him Charlie however as that leads to confusion. The significant problem with dealing with someone who is taking the role of Omega is in my ability to form a prediction about them that is sufficient to justify the 'cooperate' response. Once I have that prediction the rest, as you have shown, is just simple math.

Comment author: dv82matt 12 September 2009 01:58:38AM *  1 point [-]

I don’t think Newcomb’s Problem can easily be stated as a real (as opposed to a simply logical) problem. Any instance of Newcomb’s problem that you can feasibly construct in the real world it is not a strict one shot problem. I would suggest that optimizing a rational agent for the strictly logical one shot problem one is optimizing for a reality that we don’t exist in.

Even if I am wrong about Newcomb’s problem effectively being an iterated type of problem treating it as if it is seems to solve the dilemma.

Consider this line of reasoning. Omega wants to make the correct prediction. I want Omega to put the million dollars in the box. If I one-box I will either reward Omega for putting the money in the box or punish Omega for not putting the money in the box. Since Omega has a very high success rate I can deduce that Omega puts a high value on making the correct prediction I will therefore put a correspondingly high value on the instrumental value of spending the thousand dollars to influence Omega’s decision. But here’s the thing, this reasoning occurs before Omega even presents you with the problem. It is worked out by Omega running your decision algorithm based on Omega’s scan of your brain. It is effectively the first iteration.

You are then presented with the choice for what is effectively the second time and you deduce that any real Omega (as opposed to some platonic ideal of Omega) does something like the sequence described above in order to generate it’s prediction.

In Charlie’s case you may reason that Charlie either doesn’t care or isn’t able to produce a very accurate prediction and so reason he probably isn’t running your decision algorithm so spending the thousand dollars to try to influence Charlie’s decision has very low instrumental value.

In effect you are not just betting on the probability that the prediction is accurate you are also betting on whether your decision algorithm is affecting the outcome.

I’m not sure how to calculate this but to take a stab at it:

Edit: Removed a misguided attempt at a calculation.

Comment author: dv82matt 10 September 2009 11:04:39PM 0 points [-]

Concerning Newcomb’s Problem I understand that the dominant position among the regular posters of this site is that you should one-box. This is a position I question.

Suppose Charlie takes on the role of Omega and presents you with Newcomb’s Problem. So far as it is pertinent to the problem Charlie is identical to Omega with the notable exception that his prediction is only %55 likely to be accurate. Should you one-box or two-box in this case?

If you one-box then the expected utility is (.55 * 1,000,000) $550,000 and if you two-box then it is (.45 * 1,001,000) $450,450 so it seems you should still one-box even when the prediction is not particularly accurate. Thoughts?

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