Comment author: ShardPhoenix 19 April 2012 01:52:58AM 7 points [-]

This is cool, but I would prefer if you wrote eg 7.9:1 instead of 79:10. I think the odds always being to/from 1 would make it easier to compare them.

Comment author: farsan 20 April 2012 05:54:51AM 0 points [-]

Ok, I changed it. It certainly seems more intituitive this way.

Comment author: thomblake 18 April 2012 06:59:59PM *  2 points [-]

It seems like the obvious thing to do, but it's worth having a tiny note that percent values are approximate, just because they look exact.

Comment author: farsan 18 April 2012 07:23:27PM 3 points [-]

Ok, note added.

Comment author: thomblake 18 April 2012 07:01:00PM *  2 points [-]

A similar table for bits: https://gist.github.com/2415775

Comment author: farsan 18 April 2012 07:15:14PM 2 points [-]

Good one.

I chose the decibel scale instead of using bits because bits were a bit awkward when the probabilities were close to 50%. From 0 bits to 1 the probability jumps 16.666%, and the odds doubles, but with decibels the first jump is about 6%, and doubles the odds around 3 decibels, and multiplies them by 10 in exactly 10 decibels.

Comment author: thomblake 18 April 2012 06:44:18PM *  1 point [-]

Your odds ratios, and thus your decibels, are imprecise. I don't know if that was approximation on purpose to simplify calculation, or what?

For example, 1% is an odds ratio of 1:99, which is 10 * log(1/99) =~ -19.96.

Comment author: farsan 18 April 2012 06:53:01PM *  2 points [-]

Exactly, I used approximations on purpose, but the real approximated value in this case is the 1%. The ratio that actually gets -20 dB is 1:100.

I felt that getting approximated but round results was worth the imprecision. If I used values like -19.96 on the table, then people without the patience to handle maths wouldn't be able to use it as well.

Should I explain about the imprecisions of this table better in the article?

Comment author: thomblake 18 April 2012 06:12:58PM 2 points [-]

Yudkowski

Yudkowsky

Also, fix your fonts - looks like you got some copypasta in there.

Comment author: farsan 18 April 2012 06:24:54PM 1 point [-]

Ok. Corrected it, and tried to fix my fonts. I don't know if I did it right.

The Quick Bayes Table

33 farsan 18 April 2012 06:00PM

This is an effort to make Bayes' Theorem available to people without heavy math skills. It is possible that this has already been invented, because it is just a direct result of expanding something I read at Yudkowsky’s Intuitive Explanation of Bayes Theorem. In that case, excuse me for reinventing the wheel. Also, English is my second language.

When I read Yudkowsky’s Intuitive Explanation of Bayes Theorem, the notion of using decibels to measure the likelihood ratio of additional evidence struck me as extremely intuitive. But in the article, the notion was just a little footnote, and I wanted to check if this could be used to simplify the theorem.

It is harder to use logarithms than just using the Bayes Theorem the normal way, but I remembered that before modern calculators were made, mathematics carried around small tables of base 10 logarithms that saved them work in laborious multiplications and divisions, and I wondered if we could use the same in order to get quick approximations to Bayes' Theorem.

I calculated some numbers and produced this table in order to test my idea:

 

Decibels

Probability

Odds

-30

0.1%

1:1000

-24

0.4%

1:251

-20

1%

1:100

-18

1,5%

1:63

-15

3%

1:32

-12

6%

1:16

-11

7%

1:12.6

-10

9%

1:10

-9

11%

1:7.9

-8

14%

1:6.3

-7

17%

1:5

-6

20%

1:4

-5

24%

1:3.2

-4

28%

1:2.5

-3

33%

1:2

-2

38%

1:1.6

-1

44%

1:1.3

0

50%

1:1

+1

56%

1.3:1

+2

62%

1.6:1

+3

67%

2:1

+4

72%

2.5:1

+5

76%

3.2:1

+6

80%

4:1

+7

83%

5:1

+8

86%

6.3:1

+9

89%

7.9:1

+10

91%

10:1

+11

93%

12.6:1

+12

94%

16:1

+15

97%

32:1

+18

98.5%

63:1

+20

99%

100:1

+24

99.6%

251:1

+30

99.9%

1000:1

This table's values are approximate for easier use. The odds approximately double every 3 dB (The real odds are 1.995:1 in 3 dB) and are multiplied by 10 every 10 dB exactly.

In order to use this table, you must add the decibels results from the prior probability (Using the probability column) and the likelihood ratio (Using the ratio column) in order to get the approximated answer (Probability column of the decibel result). In case of doubt between two rows, choose the closest to 0.

For example, let's try to solve the problem in Yudkowsky’s article:

1% of women at age forty who participate in routine screening have breast cancer.  80% of women with breast cancer will get positive mammographies.  9.6% of women without breast cancer will also get positive mammographies.  A woman in this age group had a positive mammography in a routine screening.  What is the probability that she actually has breast cancer?

1% prior gets us -20 dB in the table. For the likelihood ratio, 80% true positive versus 9.6% false positive is about a 8:1 ratio, +9 dB in the table.  Adding both results, -20 dB + 9 dB = -11dB, and that translates into a 7% as the answer. The true answer is 7.9%, so this method managed to get close to the real answer with just a simple addition.

--

Yudkowsky says that the likelihood ratio doesn't tell the whole story about the possible results of a test, but I think we can use this method to get the rest of the story.

If you can get the positive likelihood ratio as the meaning of a positive result, then you can use the negative likelihood ratio as the meaning of the negative result just reworking the problem.

I'll use Yudkowsky's problem in order to explain myself. If 80% of women with breast cancer get positive mammographies, then 20% of them will get negative mammographies, and they will be false negatives. If 9.6% of women without breast cancer get positive mammographies, then 90.4% of them will get negative mammographies, true negatives.

The ratio between those two values will get us the meaning of a negative result: 20% false negative versus 90.4% true negative is between 1:4 and 1:5 ratio. We get the decibel value closest to 0, -6 dB. -20 dB - 6 dB = -26 dB. This value is between -24 dB and -30 dB, so the answer will be between 0.1% and 0.4%. The true answer is 0.2%, so it also works this way.

--

The positive likelihood ratio and the negative likelihood ratio are a good way of describing how a certain test adds additional data. We could describe the mammography test as a +9dB/-6dB test, and with only this information we know everything we need to know about the test. If the result is positive, it adds 9dB to the evidence, and if it is negative, it subtracts 6dB to it.

Simple and intuitive.

By the way, as decibels are used to measure physical quantities, not probabilities, I believe that renaming the unit would be appropriate in this case. What about DeciBayes?

Comment author: farsan 16 April 2012 06:56:12AM 6 points [-]

Greetings, everyone.

My name is Francisco, and I am from Malaga, Spain. I am a dabbling rationalist, and a programmer/troubleshooter.

I started walking the path of rationality when I started keeping track of good luck/normal luck/bad luck events in order to check if Murphy's law was actually true, and then wondering why people actually believed in it. Later, I started reading about fallacies, and I finally arrived at LW via HMPOR, like many people.

I am currently reading my way through the Sequences, but my current project is to make Bayes' theorem more accessible to people without math backgrounds. I have a couple of ideas that I'd like to refine and share at this community, even if English is my second language.

Comment author: farsan 13 June 2011 09:59:36AM *  1 point [-]

I don't think that RA actually moved the goalposts. The goal is exactly the same: "Men have better technical abilities than women, so they should get paid more for the same engineering jobs."

The point that WA actually changed was from "Men and women are just as well suited to technical careers as each other!", which he conceded, to "If men really are better, they'll get raises and promotions on their own merit, not merely by virtue of being male."... But these points aren't located in the goal. They are points in the middle of the field, parts of a discussion. Losing one of those points shouldn't mean losing the whole discussion.

An example of actual goalpost-moving should be from "Men have better technical abilities than women, so they should get paid more for the same engineering jobs." to "People who have better technical abilities should get paid more for the same engineering jobs".

Comment author: komponisto 08 April 2011 07:20:04PM *  1 point [-]

Por favor contesten en la sección de comentarios si son Españoles o residentes en España....Nota: Los hispanoamericanos también son los bienvenidos, anque solo sea por el idioma.

¿Y qué pasa con los otros? :-)

Me interesaría colaborar en un eventual proyecto para traducir las "secuencias" de LW en castellano (y otras lenguas en las que tengo alguna competencia) -- creo que sería una manera especialmente útil de practicar la escritura en idiomas distintos del inglés (lo que es para mi una especie de pasatiempo), y obtener interacción con parlantes de estos idiomas que son también "racionalistas".

Siento igualmente curiosidad por estos "problemas endémicos" de racionalidad que tenéis en España. Efectivamente tenía la impresión que España era un poco por delante de otros paises a este respecto (recuerdo por ejemplo una entrevista con el ateo italiano famoso Piergiorgio Odifreddi en un periódico español, en la cual dijo que leía cosas en la prensa española que sería muy difícil decir en su propio país).

Comment author: farsan 07 June 2011 07:26:31AM 0 points [-]

Muy buenas a todos. Yo tambien estoy interesado en traducir las secuencias al castellano. Estoy especialmente interesado en hacer llegar estos conceptos a la mayor cantidad de personas posible, y que el idioma no sea un impedimento. ¿Hay algun grupo de traducción existente?

View more: Next