Comment author: elharo 26 May 2013 12:14:19PM *  0 points [-]

I think your example eviscerates the first "Increase in Probability" definition, at least as presented here, and shows that it doesn't account for non-independent evidence. If I wake up one morning and read in the New York Times reports that Bill Clinton has bought 99.9 % of tickets in a lottery, this strongly increases my estimate of the probability that Clinton will win the lottery. Reading the same story in the Washington Post does not materially increase my estimate given the background information in the New York Times. (I suppose it slightly reduces the probability that the Times story is a hoax or mistaken. Just maybe that's relevant.) Thus by this definition the Post story is not evidence (or at least is very weak evidence) that Bill Clinton will win the lottery.

However, suppose instead I wake up and read the Post story first. This now provides strong evidence that Bill Clinton will the lottery. The Times story is weak evidence at best. So depending on the irrelevant detail of which story I read first, one is strong evidence and one is weak evidence? That seems wrong. I don't want the strength of evidence to depend more on the irrelevant detail of which order I encounter two pieces of evidence. So perhaps what's being defined here is not the quality of the evidence but the usefulness of new evidence to me given what I already know?

Of course evidence and probabilities, especially non-independent probabilities are not additive.

This is not inobvious, so I notice that I am confused. I have to think that I'm misunderstanding this definition; or that there are details in the book that you're not reporting.

Comment author: fsopho 26 May 2013 01:40:32PM 0 points [-]

So, I'll kind of second the observation in the comment above. It seems to me that, from the fact that reading the same story in the Washington Post does not make your epistemic situation better, it does not seem to follow that the Post story is not evidence that Bill win the lottery. That is: from the fact that a certain piece of evidence is swamped by another piece of evidence in a certain situation, it does not follow that the former is not evidence. We can see that it is evidence just following your steps: we conceive another situation where I didn't read the Times story but I read the Post story - and it is evidence that Bill win the lottery in this situation.

I agree that it seems just wrong to grant that strong evidence and weak evidence is determined by the access we have to evidence in order of time. But from the fact that one does not gain more justification to believe h by learning e it does not follow that e is evidence that h, all things considered.

Comment author: Decius 25 May 2013 10:27:30PM 1 point [-]

I concur. Now consider the case where you observed the ticket sales, and you saw Bill buy 999 tickets (g). Then someone tells you that Bill bought 999 tickets(e1). Is e1 evidence that Bill will win the lottery?

Suppose that you saw the ticket sales, and saw someone other than Bill buy 501 out of 1000 tickets. Is there any possible evidence that Bill will win? (Assume tickets are nontransferable & other loopholes are accounted for-the odds are 501:499 against)

Suppose that you didn't see the ticket sales, but a reliable source (The New York Times) reports that Bill bought somewhere around 500 tickets, but they don't know the exact number. Would that be evidence that Bill will win? (Assume that there are many people as eligible to buy tickets)

I will continue using the definition "e is evidence of h iff P(h|e) > P(h)". I don't think that P(h|b) is meaningful unless P(h|~b) is also meaningful.

Comment author: fsopho 26 May 2013 01:27:39PM 0 points [-]

Thanks. Your first question is showing a case where the evidential support of e1 is swamped by the evidential support of g, right? It seems that, if I have g as evidence, e1 doesn't change my epistemic situation as regards the proposition that Bill will win the lottery. So if we answer that e1 is not evidence that h in this case, we are assuming that if one piece of evidence is swamped by another, it is not evidence anymore. I wouldn't go that way (would you?), because in a situation where I didn't see Bill buying the tickets, I still would have e2 as evidence. About the question over not knowing the exact number of tickets bought by Bill, I don't know what to say besides this: seems to be a case where Jeffrey conditionalization is wellcome, given the 'uncertain' character of evidence.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 25 May 2013 07:33:43PM 3 points [-]

Have you read this?

Comment author: fsopho 26 May 2013 01:12:26PM 0 points [-]

Yes I did - but thanks for the tip anyway.

Comment author: Vaniver 25 May 2013 10:38:31PM *  3 points [-]

Your interpretation about g is correct.

The high probability interpretation is not a useful interpretation of "evidence," and there's a much easier way to discuss why: implication. P("A or ~A"|"My socks are white")=1, because P("A or ~A") is 1, and conditioning on my socks being white cannot make that less true. It is not sensible to describe the color of my socks as evidence for the truth value of "A or ~A".

The increase in probability definition is sensible, and what is used locally for Bayesian evidence.

Comment author: fsopho 26 May 2013 01:09:51PM 1 point [-]

Thanks Vaniver. Doesn't your example shows something unsatisfactory about the High Probability interpretation also? Given that P(A or ~A|My socks are white)>1/2, that my socks are white would also count as evidence that A or ~A. Your point seems to suggest that there must be something having to do with content in common between the evidence and the hypothesis.

Comment author: ozziegooen 25 May 2013 07:48:37PM 0 points [-]

While I find this particular re-definition a bit silly, that doesn't mean that in general having more succinct definitions isn't a good thing.

If the second definition of evidence were used, it would mean that "collecting evidence" would be a fundamentally different thing than it would be in the first case. In the second, "evidence" is completely relative to what is already known, and lots of new material would not be included.

So if I go out and ask people to "collect evidence", their actions should be different depending on which definition we collectively used.

In addition, the definition would lead to interesting differences in quantities. If we used the first definition, me having "lots of evidence" could mean having lots of redundant evidence for one small part of something (of course, it would also be helpful to quantify "lots", but I believe that or something similar could be done). In the second definition, I imagine it would be much more useful to what I actually want.

This new definition makes "evidence" much more coupled to resulting probabilities, which in itself could be a good thing. However, it seems like an unintuitive stretch for my current understanding of the word, so I would prefer that rather than re-defining the word, a condition were used. For example, "updating evidence" for the second definition.

Comment author: fsopho 26 May 2013 01:03:51PM *  1 point [-]

Thanks, that's interesting. The exercise of thinking how people would act to gather evidence having in mind the two probabilistic definitions gives food for thought. Specifically, I'm thinking that, if we were to tell people: "Look for evidence in favor of h and, remember, evidence is that which ...", where we substitute '...' by the relevant definition of evidence, they would gather evidence in a different way from the way we naturally look for evidence for some hypotheses. The agents to whom that advice was given would have a reflexive access to their own definition of evidence, and they would gather only what is in the scope of that definition. People being given the first definition of evidence could balk when looking for evidence that Obama will be involved in an airplane accident: if they find out that Obama will be in an airplane today, they find out evidence that Obama will be involved in an airplane accident. Now given that these people would have the advice we gave them in mind, they could start questioning themselves if they didn't receive silly advice.

Comment author: Khoth 25 May 2013 06:59:42PM *  7 points [-]

What do you think?

I think philosophers need to spend less time trying to come up with necessary-and-sufficient definitions of english words.

Comment author: fsopho 26 May 2013 12:49:31PM 1 point [-]

I agree that some philosophical searches for analyses of concepts turn out generating endless, fruitless, sequences of counterexamples and new definitions. However, it is not the case that, always, when we are trying to find out the truth conditions for something, we are engaged in such kind of unproductive thinking. As long as we care about what it is for something to be evidence for something else (we may care about this because we want to understand what gives support to scientific theories, etc), it seems legitimate for us to look for satisfactory truth conditions for 'e is evidence that h'. Trying to make the boundaries of our concepts clear is also part of the project of optimizing our rationality.

Evidence and counterexample to positive relevance

-2 fsopho 25 May 2013 06:40PM

I would like to share a doubt with you. Peter Achinstein, in his The Book of Evidence considers two probabilistic views about the conditions that must be satisfied in order for e to be evidence that h. The first one says that e is evidence that h when e increases the probability of h when added to some background information b:

(Increase in Probability) e is evidence that iff P(h|e&b) > P(h|b).

 

The second one says that e is evidence that h when the probability of h conditional on e is higher than some threshold k:

(High Probability) e is evidence that h iff P(h|e) > k.

 

A plausible way of interpreting the second definition is by saying that k = 1/2. When one takes k to have such fixed value, it turns out that P(h|e) > k has the same truth-conditions as P(h|e) > P(~h|e) - at least if we are assuming that P is a function obeying Kolmogorov's axioms of the probability calculus. Now, Achinstein takes P(h|e) > to be a necessary but insufficient condition for e to be evidence that h - while he claims that P(h|e&b) > P(h|b) is neither necessary nor sufficient for e to be evidence that h. That may seem shocking for those that take the condition fleshed out in (Increase in Probabilityat least as a necessary condition for evidential support (I take it that the claim that it is necessary and sufficient is far from accepted - presumably one also wants to qualify e as true, or as known, or as justifiably believed, etc). So I would like to check one of Achinstein's counter-examples to the claim that increase in probability is a necessary condition for evidential support.

The relevant example is as follows:

 

The lottery counterexample

Suppose one has the following background b and piece of evidence e1:

b:  This is a fair lottery in which one ticket drawn at random will win.

e1The New York Times reports that Bill Clinton owns all but one of the 1000 lottery tickets sold in a lottery.

Further, one also learns e2:

e2The Washington Post reports that Bill Clinton owns all but one of the 1000 lottery tickets sold in a lottery. 

So, one has evidence in favor of

h:  Bill Clinton will win the lottery.

 

The point now is that, although it seems right to regard e2 as being evidence in favor of h, it fails to increase h's probability conditional on (b&e1) - at least so says Achinstein. According to his example, the following is true:

 

P(h|b&e1&e2) = P(h|b&e1) = 999/1000.

 

Well, I have my doubts about this counterexample. The problem with it seems to me to be this: that e1 and e2 are taken to be the same piece of evidence. Let me explain. If e1 and e2 increase the probability of h, that is because they increase the probability of a further proposition:

 

g: Bill Clinton owns all but one of the 1000 lottery tickets sold in a lottery,

 

and, as it happens, g increases the probability of h. That The New York Times reports g, assuming that the New York Times is reliable, increases the probability of g - and the same can be said about The Washington Post reporting g. But the counterexample seems to assume that both e1 and e2 are equivalent with g, and they're not. Now, it is clear that P(h|b&g) = P(h|b&g&g), but this does not show that e2 fails to increase h's probability on (b&e1). So, if it is true that e2 increases the probability of g conditional on e1, that is, if P(g|e1&e2) > P(g|e1), and if it is true that g increases the probability of h, then it is also true that e2 increases the probability of h. I may be missing something, but this reasoning sounds right to me - the example wouldn't be a counterexample. What do you think?

Comment author: fsopho 13 December 2011 05:10:38PM 1 point [-]

So, I would like to thank you guys for the hints and critical comments here - you are helping me a lot! I'll read what you recommended in order to investigate the epistemological properties of the degree-of-belief version of bayesianism. For now, I'm just full of doubts: "does bayesianism really stand as a normative theory of rational doxastic attitudes?"; "what is the relation between degrees of belief and evidential support?", "is it correct to say that people reason in accordance to probability principles when they reason correctly?", "is the idea of defeating evidence an ilusion?", and still others. =]

Comment author: Manfred 12 December 2011 06:36:00PM 5 points [-]

Well, you didn't answered to the puzzle.

So, in order to answer the puzzles, you have to start with probabilistic beliefs, rather than with binary true-false beliefs. The problem is currently somewhat like the question "is it true or false that the sun will rise tomorrow." To a very good approximation, the sun will rise tomorrow. But the earth's rotation could stop, or the sun could get eaten by a black hole, or several other possibilities that mean that it is not absolutely known that the sun will rise tomorrow. So how can we express our confidence that the sun will rise tomorrow? As a probability - a big one, like 0.999999999999.

Why not just round up to one? Because although the gap between 0.999999999999 and 1 may seem small, it actually takes an infinite amount of evidence to bridge that gap. You may know this as the problem of induction.

So anyhow, let's take problem 1. How confident are you in P1, P2, and P3? Let's say about 0.99 each - you could make a hundred such statements and only get one wrong, or so you think. So how about T? Well, if it follows form P1, P2 and P3, then you believe it with degree about 0.97.

Now Ms. Math comes and tells you you're wrong. What happens? You apply Bayes' theorem. When something is wrong, Ms. Math can spot it 90% of the time, and when it's right, she only thinks it's wrong 0.01% of the time. So Bayes' rule says to multiply your probability of ~T by 0.9/(0.030.9 + 0.970.0001), giving an end result of T being true with probability only about 0.005.

Note that at no point did any beliefs "defeat" other ones. You just multiplied them together. If Ms. Math had talked to you first, and then you had gotten your answer after, the end result would be the same. The second problem is slightly trickier because not only do you have to apply probability theory correctly, you have to avoid applying it incorrectly. Basically, you have to be good at remembering to use conditional probabilities when applying (AME).

I can conceive the puzzle as one where all the relevant beliefs - (R1), (T), (AME), etc, - have degree 1.

I suspect that you only conceive that you can conceive of that. In addition to the post linked above, I would suggest reading this, and this, and perhaps a textbook on probability. It's not enough for something to be a belief for it to be a probability - it has to behave according to certain rules.

Comment author: fsopho 13 December 2011 01:20:50PM 0 points [-]

I can't believe people apply Baye's theorem when confronted to counter-evidence. What evidence do we have to believe that Bayesian probability theories describe the way we reason inductively?

Comment author: Gust 13 December 2011 04:22:35AM *  0 points [-]

"T is true; therefore, evidence that it is false is false. This constitutes invalid reasoning, because it rules out new knowledge that may in fact render it truly false."

Actually, I think if "I know T is true" means you assign probability 1 to T being true, and if you ever were justified in doing that, then you are justified in assigning probability 1 that the evidence is misleading and not even worth to take into account. The problem is, for all we know, one is never justified in assigning probability 1 to any belief. So I'd say the problem is a wrong question.

Edited: I meant probability 1 of misleading evidence, not 0.

Comment author: fsopho 13 December 2011 01:10:46PM *  0 points [-]

we are not justified in assigning probability 1 to the belief that 'A=A' or to the belief that 'p -> p'? Why not?

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