Comment author: gjm 13 April 2016 01:25:11PM 1 point [-]

I gravely doubt that anyone has that expression permanently stuck on their face. The image you linked to was obviously created in order to show "SJWs" in a bad light, and I can't imagine that anyone wanting to do that would use typical photos rather than particularly bad-looking photos for that purpose.

(The SJWiest people I know do not generally wear that sort of expression.)

I'm sure you're right that treating impurity and disgustingness as moral is not confined to the political right.

I suspect that the things treated as disgustingly wrong in "social justice" circles tend not to be ones that arouse feelings of disgust, as such, in most people, whereas things treated as disgustingly wrong among traditionalist social conservatives are often more widely felt to be disgusting. To put it differently: I suspect that "moral disgust" takes different forms on the left and on the right: on the left it's usually moral disapproval that has engendered disgust, and on the right it's usually disgust that has engendered moral disapproval.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 13 April 2016 03:12:30PM 1 point [-]

The image you linked to was obviously created in order to show [someone] in a bad light, and I can't imagine that anyone wanting to do that would use typical photos rather than particularly bad-looking photos for that purpose.

This is the most salient conclusion. Photography is — among other things — the art of selectively promoting some visual evidence to the viewer's consciousness.

To put it differently: I suspect that "moral disgust" takes different forms on the left and on the right: on the left it's usually moral disapproval that has engendered disgust, and on the right it's usually disgust that has engendered moral disapproval.

I'm not so sure. For one thing, "the left" and "the right" are concepts far up the ladder of abstraction, whereas a lot of "moral disgust" seems to be trained System 1 responses. Here are some things that might elicit "moral disgust" responses by people with different trained responses:

  • A parent and five-year-old child are in a store. The child picks up a toy from a shelf and does not put it back when the parent tells him to. The parent slaps the child on the face. The child drops the toy, begins quietly crying, and then puts it back on the shelf.
  • A political leader holds a rally in which the symbols of his party and nation are presented alongside one another. In a speech, he denounces the opposition party as corrupted by global business elites.
  • Two women sit on a park bench cuddling and kissing each other.
  • An elderly man dies alone in a nursing-home bed. He hadn't seen his son or daughter in ten years. His death is not noticed by staff for twelve hours.
  • Two fifteen-year-olds have sex. They use a condom, but it breaks. The young woman goes to the neighborhood pharmacy and buys an emergency contraceptive with her own money.
  • A worker completes his federal tax forms and mails a check to the government. He feels proud to have completed a duty to his nation.
  • A family finish dinner and throw away several portions-worth of uneaten food.
  • In a city playground, a man is watching twin girls swing on the swings.
  • A religious denomination, facing declining attendance, combines three parishes into two. They sell the now-abandoned third church building to a commercial developer. The developer has the sanctuary demolished and puts up a pirate-themed sports bar with scantily-clad waitresses. (Arrr.)
  • Outside an open-air market in an affluent suburb, an elderly woman is sitting on the sidewalk with a sign asking for money to pay for food and medicine.
  • An engineering company releases a product that is so successful, their competitors close up shop and lay off tens of thousands of workers.
  • A singer performs on television wearing only a skimpy bikini printed with the national flag.
  • A political leader orders a bombing run on a city block that contains both a terrorist headquarters and a pediatric clinic.
  • A professor asks an undergraduate student to come to the professor's house for dinner. Later, they have sex.
  • An artist uses her own bodily wastes as a medium to paint a representation of a religious figure, seals it in plastic, and exhibits it in a gallery.
  • A business executive contemplates a report on the expected costs of cleaning up a polluted factory site and the likelihood of a successful lawsuit against her firm. She decides not to order the cleanup.
  • A dark-skinned man who was raised Christian, and a light-skinned woman who was raised Muslim, meet at a social event and become romantically involved.
  • A woman accused of murdering her two children is found not guilty and released. The judge cites the fact that a police officer on the case was found to have threatened the woman's neighbor to get the neighbor to testify.
  • A man comes home from work and finds a note from his wife saying that she is out at her boyfriend's house and will be back around 7:30pm. When she gets home, her husband has prepared dinner for the two of them. Later, in bed, they watch the latest episode of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.
Comment author: James_Miller 12 April 2016 12:59:33AM 15 points [-]

My 11-year-old son had homework on how to be more compassionate. Rather than doing the homework he decided to donate (and tell the teacher that he was donating) $25 to the against Malaria foundation.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 12 April 2016 05:53:08AM 5 points [-]

I wonder if the teacher knows the term "category error".

A: "How would you improve your rationality?"
B: "I've just sent $25 to IBM."

Comment author: fubarobfusco 07 April 2016 02:02:00AM 2 points [-]

One conceptual difference between netnews (Usenet, NNTP, etc.) and current bloggyweb systems (LW, Reddit, Wordpress, Livejournal, etc.) is that bloggyweb systems have two kinds of messages, whereas netnews has only one.

The two kinds of messages in the bloggyweb are often called "posts" and "comments". A post is a top-level item. A comment is always attached to a single post. Some bloggyweb systems allow a tree structure of comments descending from a post. But comments and posts are fundamentally different, not only visually but also in the database schema behind them. They are also socially different: the ability to create a post is often restricted, whereas any damnfool can spam the comments. Comments are inferior to posts in every way: they are less searchable, they often can't be independently linked-to, they are presented as subordinate to posts in the user interface, etc.

In the netnews system, there is only one kind of message. Messages can contain metadata that refers to other messages — particularly by saying "this message is a reply to that one." If you want to start a new thread, you just create a message that is not a reply to any other message. If you want to continue a thread, you reply to a message in that thread. But a "thread" is not a thing — it's just a chain of messages linked to each other by metadata.

There are also other major differences. In the bloggyweb system, topical tagging is an afterthought; you find messages by following sites such as lesswrong.com, or forums such as reddit.com/r/rationality. In the netnews system, topical tagging is how anyone ever finds any messages. Topical tags in netnews are called "newsgroups". The user interface makes it seem like messages are inside newsgroups, but really a newsgroup is just a bit of indexing for tags, along with some glued-on rules for things like moderation.

In response to Fake Amnesia
Comment author: NancyLebovitz 03 April 2016 09:37:14PM 4 points [-]

I've heard that as a behavior is being extinguished, it becomes less common, but it's just as intense when it happens. That's something else to check.

In response to comment by NancyLebovitz on Fake Amnesia
Comment author: fubarobfusco 03 April 2016 10:00:58PM 1 point [-]

This makes intuitive sense, anyway: someone who is about to smoke (what turns out to be) their last cigarette before they finally succeed in quitting, does not therefore do a half-assed job of lighting it.

Comment author: DanArmak 27 March 2016 04:52:56PM 0 points [-]

Which would stop us from deriving new moral claims from existing ones. I understand now. Thanks!

So, if I understand correctly now, non-cognitivists say that human morals aren't constrained by the rules of logic. People don't care much about contradictions between their moral beliefs, they don't try to reduce them to consistent and independent axioms, they don't try to find new rules implied by old ones. They just cheer and boo certain things.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 28 March 2016 12:07:31AM *  4 points [-]

It's worth noting that there are non-cognitivist positions other than emotivism (the "boo, murder!" position). For instance, there's the prescriptivist position — that moral claims are imperative sentences or commands. This is also non-cognitivist, because commands are not propositions and don't have truth-values. But it's not emotivist, since we can do a kind of logic on commands, even though it's not the same as the logic on propositions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-cognitivism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperative_logic

("Boo, murder!" does not logically entail "Boo, murdering John!" ... but the command "Don't murder people!" conjoined with the proposition "John is a person." does seem to logically entail the command "Don't murder John!" So conjunction of commands and propositions works. But disjunction on commands doesn't work.)

Comment author: DanArmak 27 March 2016 11:50:19AM *  1 point [-]

I don't understand how this difference leads to different (and disjoint / disagreeing) philosophical positions on what it means for people to say that "murder is wrong".

If someone says they disapprove of murder, they could be wrong or lying, or they could actually disapprove a little but say they disapprove lots, or vice versa. And if they actually boo murder, that's a signal they really disapprove of it, enough to invest energy in booing. But aside from signalling and credibility and how much they care about it, isn't their claimed position the same?

Are you saying non-cognitivists claim people who say "murder is wrong" never actually engage in false signalling, and we should take all statements of "murder is wrong" to be equivalent to actual booing? That sounds trivially false; surely that's not the intent of non-cognitivism.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 27 March 2016 04:09:51PM 4 points [-]

If moral claims are not propositions, then propositional logic doesn't work on them — notably, this means that a moral claim could never be the conclusion of a logical proof.

Comment author: DanArmak 26 March 2016 06:34:54PM 8 points [-]

As before, I found the question on metaethics (31) to be a tossup because I agree with several of the options given. I'd be interested in hearing from people who agree with some but not all of these answers:

  • Non-cognitivism: Moral statements don't express propositions and can neither be true nor false. "Murder is wrong" means something like "Boo murder!".
  • Error theory: Moral statements have a truth-value, but attempt to describe features of the world that don't exist. "Murder is wrong" and "Murder is right" are both false statements because moral rightness and wrongness aren't features that exist.
  • Subjectivism: Some moral statements are true, but not universally, and the truth of a moral statement is determined by non-universal opinions or prescriptions, and there is no non-attitudinal determinant of rightness and wrongness. "Murder is wrong" means something like "My culture has judged murder to be wrong" or "I've judged murder to be wrong".

I'm a subjectivist: I understand that when someone says "murder is wrong", she's expressing a personal judgement - others can judge differently. But I also know that most people are moral realists, so they wrongly think they are describing features of the world that don't in fact exist; thus, I believe in error theory. And what does it mean to proclaim that something "is wrong", other than to boo it, i.e. to call for people not to do it and to shun those who do? Thus, I also agree with non-cognitivism.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 27 March 2016 05:13:48AM 4 points [-]

And what does it mean to proclaim that something "is wrong", other than to boo it, i.e. to call for people not to do it and to shun those who do?

The intended difference is something like —

  • "I disapprove of murder." This is a proposition that can be true or false. (Perhaps I actually approve of murder, in which case it is false.)
  • "Boo, murder!" This is not a proposition. It is an act of disapproval. If I say this, I am not claiming that I disapprove — I am disapproving.

It's like the difference between asserting, "I appreciate that musical performance," and actually giving a standing ovation. (It's true that people sometimes state propositions to express approval or disapproval, but we also use non-proposition expressions as well.)

Comment author: fubarobfusco 26 March 2016 03:17:35PM 16 points [-]

If you paint a Chinese flag on a wolverine, and poke it with a stick, it will bite you.

This does not mean that the primary danger of aggravating the Chinese army is that they will bite you.

It certainly does not mean that nations who fear Chinese aggression should prepare by banning sticks or investing in muzzles for wolverines.

Comment author: Lumifer 23 March 2016 03:43:43PM *  5 points [-]

Andrew Gelman mentioned "the Kahneman-Gigerenzer catfight, or more generally the endless debate between those who emphasize irrationality in human decision making and those who emphasize the adaptive and functional qualities of our shortcuts." This looked worth checking, so I followed the link to the following statement by Gigerenzer:

The “half-empty” versus “half-full” explanation of the differences between Kahneman and us misses the essential point: the difference is about the nature of the glass of rationality, not the level of the water. For Kahneman, rationality is logical rationality, defined as some content-free law of logic or probability; for us, it is ecological rationality, loosely speaking, the match between a heuristic and its environment. For ecological rationality, taking into account contextual cues (the environment) is the very essence of rationality, for Kahneman it is a deviation from a logical norm and thus, a deviation from rationality. In Kahneman’s philosophy, simple heuristics could never predict better than rational models; in our research we have shown systematic less-is-more effects.

LW's dog in this catfight is probably on the Kahneman's side, but the debate is interesting.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 25 March 2016 04:09:44AM *  0 points [-]

Eh. This is sounding more and more like a dispute over definitions, and hence tedious; and I would be unsurprised to find that it arose from either self-promotion or ideology; q.v. the Gould and Eldredge v. Maynard Smith et al. kerfuffle.

Comment author: James_Miller 18 March 2016 04:08:41PM 3 points [-]

If we define intelligence as the ability to solve complex problems in complex environments then there is no objective way to measure competence or intelligence outside of society. If a gene makes you more attractive and because of this attractiveness others respond better to you and this makes you better able, with the help of others, to solve problems then this gene really has made you more intelligent. (This is different from this beauty gene causing others to falsely perceive you as being better able to solve problems than you really are.)

Comment author: fubarobfusco 19 March 2016 02:48:07AM *  3 points [-]

If a gene makes you more attractive and because of this attractiveness others respond better to you and this makes you better able, with the help of others, to solve problems then this gene really has made you more intelligent.

For that matter, if that attractiveness makes teachers more interested to spend time on teaching you, then attractiveness can also make you better-educated.

I think what we're trying to get to with the idea of intelligence is some kind of independent mental property that doesn't have to do with those sorts of things. What I hear you saying is that this independence is pretty much a myth!

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