Comment author: Ixiel 13 June 2016 03:20:19PM 0 points [-]

Yeah, for want of a specific book counter that's what I figured. But I figured if there WERE a book method to bypass that this is the community that would know, and it'd be worth knowing. Thanks anyway.

Comment author: g_pepper 13 June 2016 04:16:35PM *  0 points [-]

The standard "book counter" would be to point out that the objection is a fallacious argumentum ad hominem. However, unless you are in a formal or quasi-formal debate situation or addressing an academic audience, Lumifer's suggested approach is preferable, IMO.

ETA: I wonder why this was downvoted; it seems like a non-controversial comment that is relevant to the topic.

Comment author: EngineerofScience 03 June 2016 06:18:14PM 0 points [-]

So is there ever a time where you can use absence of evidence alone to disprove a theory, or do you always need other evidence as well? Because is some cases absence of evidence clearly does not disprove a theory, such as when quantum physics was first being discovered, there was not a lot of evidence for it, but can the inverse ever be true will lack of evidence alone proves the theory is false?

Comment author: g_pepper 03 June 2016 09:20:02PM 0 points [-]

From the OP:

The absence of an observation may be strong evidence of absence or very weak evidence of absence, depending on how likely the cause is to produce the observation.

So, yes, absence of evidence can convincingly disprove a theory in some cases (although, as ChristianKI points out, Bayesians typically do not assign probabilities of 0 or 1 to any theory).

Comment author: Viliam 30 May 2016 08:44:53AM *  -1 points [-]

Some people believe that altruism has evolved through helping your relatives or through helping others to help you in return. I was thinking about it; on the surface the idea looks good -- if you already have this system in place, it is easy to see how it benefits those involved -- but that doesn't explain how the system could have appeared in the first place. Anyone knows the standard answer?

Imagine that you are literally the first organism who by random mutation achieved a gene for "helping those who help you". How specifically does this gene increase your fitness, if there is no one else to reciprocate?

Or imagine that you are literally the first organism who by random mutation achieved a gene for "helping your siblings". How specifically does this gene increase your fitness, or the fitness of the gene itself, if your siblings do not have a copy of this gene?

In other words, it seems simple to explain how these kinds of altruism can work when they are already an established system, but it is more difficult to explain how it could work when it is new.

And this all is a huge simplification; for example, I doubt that "helping those who help you" could be achieved by a single mutation, since it involves multiple parts like "noticing that someone helped you", "remembering the individual who helped you" and "helping the individual who helped you in the past". Plus the problem of how to start this chain of mutual cooperation.

My guess is that... nygehvfz pbhyq unir ribyirq guebhtu frkhny fryrpgvba. Yrg'f rkcynva vg ol funevat sbbq jvgu bguref. Svefg, vaqvivqhnyf abgvpr jub vf tbbq ng tngurevat sbbq, naq gurl ribyir nggenpgvba gbjneqf tbbq sbbq pbyyrpgbef. Gung znxrf vzzrqvngr frafr orpnhfr vg vapernfrf fheiviny bs gur puvyqera, vs gurl nyfb trg gur trarf tbbq sbe tngurevat sbbq. Nsgre guvf nggenpgvba rkvfgf jvguva gur fcrpvrf, gur arkg fgrc pbhyq or fvtanyyvat: vs lbh unir fbzr rkgen sbbq lbh qba'g npghnyyl arrq, oevat vg naq ivfvoyl qebc vg arne bgure vaqvivqhnyf, fb gung bguref abgvpr lbh unir zber sbbq guna lbh pna rng. Ntnva, guvf znxrf vzzrqvngr frafr, orpnhfr vg znxrf lbh zber nggenpgvir. Abgvpr ubj arvgure "urycvat lbh eryngvirf" abe "urycvat gubfr jub uryc lbh" jnf arprffnel gb ribyir urycvat vaqvfpevzvangryl. Npghnyyl, gubfr pbhyq unir ribyirq yngre, nf shegure vzcebirzragf bs be nqqvgvbaf gb gur vaqvfpevzvangr urycvat.

Comment author: g_pepper 30 May 2016 03:32:52PM 1 point [-]

Richard Dawkins' 1976 book The Selfish Gene contains, among other things, some interesting discussions about how many altruistic behaviors might have arisen through natural selection.

Comment author: ChristianKl 07 May 2016 05:29:36PM 0 points [-]

Actually, you brought the invention of the steam engine into the conversation.

I spoke about the invention of the steam engine as a means for pumping water out of mines. The Greeks never tried to use it for that purpose.

required scientific knowledge of thermodynamics, behavior of gases, metallurgy, etc.

I don't think that Thomas Newcomen had much scientific knowledge of thermodynamics. Most of thermodynamics developed after there were already commercial steam engines.

I think knowledge about metallurgy at the time wasn't mainly scientific but based on trades. You had smiths who learned it by being smiths and who then passed it down to an apprentice.

Comment author: g_pepper 07 May 2016 08:42:59PM *  0 points [-]

I spoke about the invention of the steam engine as a means for pumping water out of mines. The Greeks never tried to use it for that purpose.

True, but you and two other people pointed out that the Greeks had invented the steam engine as if that somehow invalidated something that I had said.

Most of thermodynamics developed after there were already commercial steam engines.

This is not really true. Scientific work in the area of thermodynamics had been done in the 17th century by Denis Papin, Otto von Guericke , Robert Boyle, Thomas Savery and others. Some of this work was directly applicable to steam engines.

I don't think that Thomas Newcomen had much scientific knowledge of thermodynamics.

I think it is likely that Newcomen was familiar with Savery's earlier work on steam engines, at a minimum. And, whereas you are focused on the invention (or reinvention, in Newcomen's case) of the steam engine, I think that the ongoing development of the steam engine is at least as relevant. The development of the steam engine continued well past then end of Newcomen's life - the late 18th century engines and the 19th century steam engines used on trains, ships and in industry were much improved over the versions produced by Newcomen - and many of these improvements came about from scientific knowledge in the areas of gas laws, thermodynamics, etc.

I think knowledge about metallurgy at the time wasn't mainly scientific but based on trades.

This is largely true, particularly in the 18th century. But as noted above, the steam engine continued to be developed and improved throughout the 19th century. Some of these improvements were possible by improved materials (metals), and by the latter half of the 19th century, metallurgy was becoming more scientific, particularly with regard to improvements in steel production.

19th century steel manufacturing also gave a big boost to the steam engine industry in an indirect manner - quality steel greatly improved the strength and longevity of railroad tracks and trestles, leading to increased use of rail and increased demands for more powerful and more efficient steam engines. Since the quote that started this conversation was about the "technical accomplishment of our civilization" and "the ingenuity of the inventions, the range and density of technical mediation, the multiplicity of artifactual interfaces in a global technoscientific economy", I think that it is useful to look at how various industries (such as the steel and railroad industry) affected the later development of the steam engine rather than focusing exclusively on its early commercialization by Newcomen.

Comment author: ChristianKl 07 May 2016 01:24:45PM 0 points [-]

I don't think that it makes sense to see all Western archievements as coming out of the Western analytical mindset. Western society has always been diverse and contained people with different mindsets.

The Greek had steam engines before the invention of the modern scientific method, so I don't see how the modern scientific method was a requirement for the invention of steam engines.

I do grant that the scientific method has important effect on the way our modern technology works, but I think you get into problems when you start to claim that all of our modern technology is due to the scientific method and analytic thinking.

Comment author: g_pepper 07 May 2016 04:14:22PM 0 points [-]

The Greek had steam engines before the invention of the modern scientific method

Actually, you brought the invention of the steam engine into the conversation.

And, while the Greeks invented a rudimentary steam engine, the ancient Greek engine was not really of any practical use. Developing a commercially viable steam engine did not occur until much later. Developing a steam engine that could be used reliably, safely and efficiently for transportation, etc., required scientific knowledge of thermodynamics, behavior of gases, metallurgy, etc.

I do grant that the scientific method has important effect on the way our modern technology works

Which is what led to my question about why the author thinks that the Eastern mode of thought is superior to the Western mode of thought for "understanding the contribution knowledge makes to the technical accomplishment of our civilization". When I phrased the question, I did not mean it in an argumentative sense, I actually meant I am interested to hear his thoughts on the subject - which is one of the reasons I intend to read the book.

Comment author: ChristianKl 06 May 2016 09:58:13PM *  0 points [-]

how does the author explain the fact that the scientific method, the industrial revolution, and (to use his words), "the multiplicity of artifactual interfaces in a global technoscientific economy" grew out of the Western intellectual tradition?

Whether the industrial revolution came out of the intellectual tradition is up for debate. If you take Henry Ford as of of the core people of the industrial revolution, Ford didn't go to university. I think most of the knowledge that made Ford successful wasn't about him believing in justified true statements but of more implicit nature.

The people who invented the steam engine also didn't have university degrees. They were rather tradesman who relied on mechanical skill for their inventions. Western intellectuals didn't concerns themselves with optimal systems of pumping water out of mines like Thomas Newcomen did.

Comment author: g_pepper 06 May 2016 11:20:10PM *  0 points [-]

When I said these things "grew out of the Western intellectual tradition" I did not mean to suggest that the steam engine had been invented by an academic. In fact, neither the steam engine nor the automobile was invented in a vacuum; whether or not the inventors of these things (or the people who first successfully mass-produced them) had university degrees is not the issue. Developing steam engines, internal combustion engines, electric generators and motors, vacuum tubes and semiconductors, and many of the other things that have driven the technology boom over the past couple of hundred years required scientific knowledge, and the modern scientific method was a development of the Western analytical mindset.

Comment author: ChristianKl 06 May 2016 07:29:13PM 1 point [-]

I haven't yet finished it.

I bring it up because many people here still equate knowledge with justified truth and see it as only one form of knowledge.

Being clear about the fact that there are different ways of knowing is very important for the quest of rationality. The example of Chinese philosophy then is relatively benign and doesn't trigger mindkilling reflexes they way that postcolonial thought does.

The Chinese also actually act based on their idea of knowledge with makes it more believable. As China becomes culturally more influential it's also useful to understand their thought better.

Comment author: g_pepper 06 May 2016 08:14:11PM *  1 point [-]

The book sounds interesting. When I read your quote from the book, I initially misinterpreted it as a anti-philosophy comment of the sort one occasionally encounters but after reading the blurb for the book on Amazon, realized the quote was contrasting Eastern vs Western thought.

One thing I am curious about - if the Eastern mode of thought is really superior to the Western mode of thought for "understanding the contribution knowledge makes to the technical accomplishment of our civilization", how does the author explain the fact that the scientific method, the industrial revolution, and (to use his words), "the multiplicity of artifactual interfaces in a global technoscientific economy" grew out of the Western intellectual tradition?

However, I do think that there are interesting differences between the traditional Eastern way of thinking and the traditional Western way of thinking, and that each has its unique strengths. An interesting book on this topic is The Geography of Thought by Richard Nisbett; it points out the differences between Eastern and Western thought without really painting one as "better" than the other. Note that Nisbett's book is aimed at a general audience whereas I suspect that Allen's may be aimed at an academic audience.

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts about Allen's book once you've finished reading it. I'm putting it on my "to read" list, but I'm not sure when I'll get to it.

Comment author: Good_Burning_Plastic 06 May 2016 05:15:01PM *  2 points [-]

Deliberately left as an exercise for the reader. It really is trivial, but it seems so obvious once it's known that I'm honestly curious how obvious it is (or isn't?) when it's not already known.

Took me several minutes, and I'm still not 100% sure my proof is correct.

Edit: The one I was thinking of was more complicated than needed. Nal vagrtre a terngre guna sbhe raqf jvgu gjb jura jevggra va onfr a zvahf gjb.

Comment author: g_pepper 06 May 2016 05:35:36PM *  1 point [-]

Nal vagrtre a terngre guna sbhe raqf jvgu gjb jura jevggra va onfr a zvahf gjb

That was the proof that I thought of as well.

Comment author: ChristianKl 06 May 2016 04:09:28PM *  1 point [-]

Western theories of knowledge tend to fix on statements and beliefs—symbolic, linguistic, propositional entities—and have developed highly technical concepts of evidence, warrant, and justification, all to explain a preposterously small fragment of knowledge—the part that is true, “the truth.” This contemplative, logocentric approach, much favored in antiquity and never really shaken from later tradition, is counterproductive for understanding the contribution knowledge makes to the technical accomplishment of our civilization. The ingenuity of the inventions, the range and density of technical mediation, the multiplicity of artifactual interfaces in a global technoscientific economy attest to the reach and depth of contemporary knowledge. But this knowledge resists logical analysis into simpler concepts, seldom climaxes in demonstrable truth, and does not stand to pure theory as mere application or derivative “how- to” knowledge. Thus does the best knowledge of our civilization become unaccountable in the epistemologies of the epistemologists.

Barry Allen in Vanishing into Things

Comment author: g_pepper 06 May 2016 05:10:22PM 0 points [-]

I just now looked up Vanishing into Things on Amazon and it looks quite interesting. Have you read the book in its entirety? What are your thoughts about it?

Comment author: Jiro 04 May 2016 03:13:27AM *  0 points [-]

Pretty much every variation on a religion you can think of has been thought up by someone, at some time in the past. You can't use that as your criteria for "ancient tradition" without making the whole concept of "ancient tradition" meaningless because now everything is one. How mainstream was the belief that Genesis is not literal?

For that matter, since religion is supposed to provide eternal truth, the idea of having a minority tradition in sometinng seems problematic. If a religion has multiple traditions at once, how do you decide which one counts as the "real" one that nonbelievers should be criticizing? And if the ancients had beliefs A or B, but moderns only have A, how do you decide that that counts as the ancients believing A (so you can claim that moderns are following tradition) rather than as the ancients believing B (which means that moderns are breaking with tradition)?

Comment author: g_pepper 04 May 2016 03:56:46AM *  2 points [-]

How mainstream was the belief that Genesis is not literal?

Well, the three authors that I listed are among the most influential early doctors of the church, so their views are definitely mainstream (albeit not universally held).

You can't use that as your criteria for "ancient tradition" without making the whole concept of "ancient tradition" meaningless because now everything is one.

I don't know about that. I listed three very influential early Christian theologians who took much of Genesis to be non literal.

how exactly do you figure out which tradition is the "real" one

Your point that there are divergent views on the matter of how literally to take Genesis is certainly true and not in dispute. I alluded to that fact in my post when I said:

it is certainly the case that some believers traditionally interpreted Genesis literally (and some still do)

However, I don't see how that conflicts with my point that one can interpret the serpent story metaphorically without breaking with early mainstream Christian traditions. Moreover, you wrote:

For that matter, since religion is supposed to provide eternal truth, the idea of having a minority tradition in sometinng seems problematic--how exactly do you figure out which tradition is the "real" one...?

I don't see how the fact that there are divergent interpretations of some scriptural stories is particularly surprising or problematic, unless you are trying judge ancient religious texts against the stylistic standards of modern historical or scientific writing (which presumably most people would not recommend doing).

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