Comment author: turchin 17 August 2016 12:14:06AM 0 points [-]

Elon Musk almost terminated our simulation.

Simulation is a simulation only if everybody is convinced that they are living real life. Bostrom proved that we are most likely live in a simulation, but not much people know about it. Elon Musk tweeted that we live with probability 1000000 to 1 in simulation. Now everybody knows. I think that it was 1 per cent chance that our simulation will terminate after it. It has not happen this time, but there may be some other threshold after which it will be terminated, like finding more proves that we are in a simulation or creation of an AI.

Comment author: g_pepper 17 August 2016 01:35:34AM *  0 points [-]

Actually, Bostrom did not argue that we are most likely living in a simulation. Instead, he argued that at least one of three propositions must be true, and one of those propositions is that "almost all people with our sorts of experiences live in computer simulations". But, since it is possible that one of the other two propositions could be true, it does not necessarily follow that we most likely live in a simulation.

In fact, Bostrom has stated that he believes that we are probably not simulated (see the second paragraph of this paper).

Of course, per your comments, it is possible that Bostrom only said that we are probably not simulated so as not to terminate the simulation :).

In response to comment by g_pepper on Identity map
Comment author: turchin 15 August 2016 08:40:11PM 0 points [-]

But if you don't know who is original or copy, you may start to worry about.

Uncertainty is part of identity, I mean that any definition of identity should include some part of uncertainty, as identity is unmeasurable and undefined thing. Will it be me tomorrow? What if I am only a copy? What if my copy will be done with mistakes? All problem of identity appear in the situations when it is uncertain. And sometimes increase of uncertainty may solve this problems, as we do in indexical uncertainty.

In response to comment by turchin on Identity map
Comment author: g_pepper 15 August 2016 09:09:44PM 0 points [-]

But if you don't know who is original or copy, you may start to worry about.

It seems to me that who is the original and who is the copy is irrelevant to my reaction in the leg amputation thought experiment. But, who is me and who is not me is very relevant. For example, suppose I am a copy of the original gpepper. In that case, I would be less unhappy about the original gpepper having his leg cut off than I would be about having my own leg cut off.

In response to comment by g_pepper on Identity map
Comment author: turchin 15 August 2016 07:32:10PM *  0 points [-]

The strangers are identical in this aspect and are different in other aspects.

it is all similar to social approach to identity. (It is useful for understanding, but final solution should be more complex, so I would say that it is my final opinion.)

The idea is to define identity not trough something about me, but through my difference with other people, so identity is not substance but form of relation with others.

The identity exist only in social situations, where at least several people exist (or their copies), if only one being would exist in the universe it probably will not have idea or problems with identity.

For social situation it is important to distinguish identity of different people, based on their identity tags (name and face). Even I have to remember who I am and scan my live situation every morning. So my personal feeling of identity is in some sense my representation of my self as it would be seen from the social point of view.

If I see my friend F. and he looks like F and correctly reacts on identification procedures (recognises me and reacts on his name), I think that he is F. (Duck test). But in fact infinite number of different possible beings could past the same test.

And interesting thing is that a person could run this identification test for hum self. (And fail: Once i was baby-sitting Lisa's two children and stay in their home. I woke up in the morning and thought that two my children are sleeping and I am in Lisa's bed, so I should be Lisa. In 0.5 second I woke up a little bit more and understood that I am not Lisa and I am even male.)

I tell all it to show how being a member of a class could be good approximation of identity. But real identity should be more complex thing.

In response to comment by turchin on Identity map
Comment author: g_pepper 15 August 2016 08:13:38PM 0 points [-]

I understand that identity is too complex to figure out in this comment thread. However, any theory of identity that defines or approximates identity as "a member of a class" is apt to badly miss encapsulating most people's understanding of identity, as illustrated by the fact that my reaction to having my own leg cut off is going to be significantly different than is my reaction to a copy of me having his leg cut off. I wouldn't be happy about either situation, but I'd be much less happy at having my own leg cut off than I would about a copy of me having his leg cut off.

In response to comment by g_pepper on Identity map
Comment author: turchin 15 August 2016 06:21:41PM 0 points [-]

One way to look at it is as of a trick to solve different identity puzzles.

Another possible idea is to generalise it in a principle: "I am a class of all beings from which I can't distinguish myself."

There is only one real test on identity, that is the question: "What I will feel in the next moment?" Any identity theory must provide plausible answer to it.

Identity theories belong to two main classes: the ones which show real nature of identity and the ones that contract useful identity theory if identity doesn't have any intrinsic nature.

And if identity is a construction we may try to construct it in the most useful and simple way, which is also don't contradict our intuitive representation of what identity is (which are complex biological and cultural adaption).

It is like "love" - everybody could feel it, as it evolved biologically and culturally, but if we try to give it short logical definition, we are in troubles.

So, defining identity as a subset of all beings from which I can't distinguish myself may be not real nature of identity, but useful construction. I will not insist that it is the best construction.

In response to comment by turchin on Identity map
Comment author: g_pepper 15 August 2016 06:49:14PM 0 points [-]

I agree that identity

is like "love" - everybody could feel it, as it evolved biologically and culturally, but if we try to give it short logical definition, we are in troubles

And, there are other things that most people experience but that are hard to define and can seem paradoxical, e.g. consciousness and free will.

However, you said that we can generalize your leg-amputation thought experiment as a principle: "I am a class of all beings from which I can't distinguish myself." I don't understand what you mean by this - your thought experiment involving 1,000,000 copies of a person seems equivalent to my thought experiment invovling 1,000,000 strangers. So, I do not see how being a member of a class from which I can't distinguish myself is relevant.

In response to comment by le4fy on Identity map
Comment author: turchin 15 August 2016 04:22:49PM 0 points [-]

Look, it will work if it will done in several stages.

1) I am alone and I know that my leg will be cut 2) A friend of mine created 1 000 000 copies, all of them think that their leg will be cut 3) He informs all copies and me about his action, everybody is excited.

I don't see it as confirmation to MW, as it assumed to be done via some kind of scanner in one world, but yes it is similar to MW and may be useful example to estimate subjective probabilities in some thought experiments like quantum suicide with external conditions (and also copies).

In response to comment by turchin on Identity map
Comment author: g_pepper 15 August 2016 05:46:54PM *  0 points [-]

It seems to me that you have 1,000,000 different people, one of whom is going to get his/her leg cut off. The fact that they are all copies of one another seems irrelevant. The same relief that each of the 1,000,000 people in your example feels (in your step 3) upon learning that there is only 1/1000000 chance of loosing a leg would be felt by each of 1,000,000 randomly selected strangers if you:

  • Told each individually that he/she would have his/her leg cut off
  • Then told each that only one member of the group would be randomly selected to have his/her leg cut off

So I guess I do not see how this example tells us anything about identity.

Comment author: turchin 12 August 2016 07:58:12PM 0 points [-]

I would like to clarify my position: Identity is complex social adaptation and it is directly connected with hard problem of consciousness. So we can't finally solve any identity paradox on our current level of knowledge.

Indexical uncertainty in case of twins is a trick which may be used to skip identity problem. It doesn't prove that twins are identical. It just makes it not important.

So it doesn't prove that twins are the same. It may work for very different people as long as everyone don't know who is who. But it could be reasonable guide to make decisions in the situations where many my copies exist (including uploading, quantum multiverse statistic etc)

But it is not the only principle. Another one is "conservative approach" - that is we should try to preserve as much identity as possible as we don't know what is identity.

Comment author: g_pepper 12 August 2016 09:12:24PM *  0 points [-]

Identity is complex social adaptation and it is directly connected with hard problem of consciousness.

I agree that identity is directly connected with the hard problem of consciousness. That identity is a social adaptation seems plausible (to me) but not certain.

So we can't finally solve any identity paradox on our current level of knowledge.

It seems to me that, per mwengler's observation, we already have past copies (your category number 1); identical twins are past copies that branched shortly after conception. Past copies, it seems to me, do not share a common identity and are distinct people with distinct conscious experiences. I'm not sure that I see any identity paradoxes involving past copies.

Current, mirror copies (your category number 2), cannot exist in a conscious state for any meaningful amount of time (except perhaps as EMs where the hosting environment ensures that they have identical stimuli, are kept in sync from a simulation standpoint, etc.), so mirror copies can be ignored, it seems to me.

Future copies (your category number 3) do seem to have some paradoxes (or at least they are unclear to me). Specifically,

  1. if I know that I am going to be non-destructively copied in five minutes, should I care more about one future copy than I do the other? I suspect that I should not.

  2. If I know that I am going to be copied but the original will be destroyed in the process, should this concern me? It seems like, per #1, it should not. But, somehow, I don't think that I'd be very eager to go through with a destructive copy process.

  3. How can it be that the identity of a person and his/her future copy is the same (which seems plausible), but two past copies have distinct identities? It seems like personal identity should be transitive.

So it seems to me that future copies are paradoxical. And of course future copies will matter if/when uploading becomes possible, so we will eventually need to resolve (or accept) the paradoxes.

Comment author: turchin 12 August 2016 06:52:28PM *  0 points [-]

It means the following in your example:

Suppose I am one of twins, but I don't know which twin I am. But I know that twin 1 will be hit in face in next 1 minute. In this case I am in the situation of so called indexical uncertainty and my best guess is that I have 50 per cent probability of being twin 1 and thus 50 per cent probability being hit in the future. After I will be hit, I will know with 100 per cent probability that I am twin 1.

In general there is problem with the idea of copies, as it mixes several different ideas and it results into paradoxes. The idea of copies should be broken on several ideas:

1) "past copies" - that is the copies of me which was made before now moment (twins are best example of them),

2) "mirror copies" which are exact my copies now

3) "future copies" - which will be made from me in future.

Comment author: g_pepper 12 August 2016 07:33:59PM *  0 points [-]

Thanks for the clarification. However when you say:

Suppose I am one of twins, but I don't know which twin I am. But I know that twin 1 will be hit in face in next 1 minute. In this case I am in the situation of so called indexical uncertainty and my best guess is that I have 50 per cent probability of being twin 1 and thus 50 per cent probability being hit in the future. After I will be hit, I will know with 100 per cent probability that I am twin 1.

This is really not unique to twins. Suppose I choose two strangers and tell them that I will flip a coin and punch one or the other of them in the face in one minute, depending on the outcome of the coin toss. Assuming the strangers stick around, they will be in the same position as the two twins in your example. So, I don't really see how this tells us anything interesting about identity, twins or copies.

Also, considering the first two of your three cases of copies, i.e. past copies and mirror copies, it seems to me that if I make a nondestructive copy of a person, the two will be mirror copies only for an instant; once the copy process completes and the two "wake up" (presuming that copying is done from an unconscious state), the two copies will immediately begin diverging based on different stimuli, etc., and will therefore become instances of case 1 (past copies). So, from a practical standpoint, there can be no instances of case 2 for any meaningful duration of time (that is to say, for enough time to interact with the copies).

Comment author: turchin 12 August 2016 04:56:09PM 0 points [-]

I am going soon to publish Identity map which will sum up my research of the identity problem.

1) If twins are really similar, there will be indexical question for them. Each of them will not know if he is twin 1 or twin 2. So in practical situations they should think that any event which affect one of twins has 50 per cent situation to happen with them. So consciousness will not jump from one twin to another. It is already shared in this example.

2) Philosophers are well aware of the problem and it is called "other minds problem" and "hard problem" of consciousness. the main problem here is that if we adopt idea that consciousness could be different without any physical difference between the copies, we adopt the idea of p-zombies and reject physicalism that is modern version of materialism. It almost the same as to say that immaterial soul exist. It is very strong statement.

Comment author: g_pepper 12 August 2016 05:39:18PM 0 points [-]

any event which affect one of twins has 50 per cent situation to happen with them

I don't understand what that means. For example, if I were to punch one of a pair of identical twins, the twin that I punched would feel the pain, and the twin that I did not punch would not feel any pain. In this regard, the two twins would have no more of a shared consciousness than would two strangers.

I suspect that if someone were non-destructively copied, the situation would be similar, as mwengler suggests. The two would have a common set of memories up until the point that the copy was made, but from that point on they would have no common or shared consciousness; they would be two distinct people (albeit with an uncanny resemblance to each other).

Comment author: Arielgenesis 25 July 2016 05:29:30PM 0 points [-]

The idea of the story is that there are no evidence. Because I think, in real life, sometimes, there are important and relevant things with no evidence. In this case, Adam's innocence is important and relevant to Eve (for emotional and social reasons I presume), but there is no, and there will never be, evidence. Given that, saying: "If there is evidence, then the belief could be falsified." is a kind of cheating because producing new evidence is not possible anymore.

Comment author: g_pepper 25 July 2016 06:54:14PM 1 point [-]

The idea of the story is that there are no evidence.

But in the OP, you said:

she has known Adam very well and the Adam that she knew, wouldn't commit murder. She uses Adam's character and her personal relationship with him as evidence.

It seems to me that Adam's character as observed by Eve is evidence. Not irrefutable evidence, but evidence all the same. It seems to me that, baring evidence of Adam's guilt or evidence that Adam's character had recently changed, Eve is rational for beleiving Adam to be innocent on the basis of that evidence.

Cain provided no such evidence, so Eve is rational in her belief.

Comment author: Romashka 22 June 2016 08:23:51PM 0 points [-]

Too confidential.

Comment author: g_pepper 22 June 2016 09:28:24PM 3 points [-]

Even if you do not share your written thoughts with anyone, writing them down can help to organize your thoughts into a form that can be more easily analyzed and evaluated (by you).

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