[Survey Taken Thread]
By ancient tradition, if you take the survey you may comment saying you have done so here, and people will upvote you and you will get karma.
Let's make these comments a reply to this post. That way we continue the tradition, but keep the discussion a bit cleaner.
These are all good and useful fields of study, but crucially, they're using the word "consciousness" to mean something different from what was under discussion here, which I did my best to point out.
This subthread started with the g_pepper saying:
Pretty much everyone is under the impression that he or she is conscious, and yet we can't really empirically test for consciousness. Both consciousness and free will seem like useful concepts that most people perceive and experience even though we can't empirically test for them and we may lack rigorous, universally agreed upon definitions for them.
Clearly, whatever is being talked about here doesn't belong to one of the fields of study you mentioned. In none of those fields does the statement that "we can't [ever] empirically test for consciousness" make sense - obviously we can test if a person (or other system) is forming memories, is able to make verbal reports, has blind spots, etc. We don't need to rely on people's own impressions of being conscious, either.
This is "consciousness" in the vernacular (and philosophical) sense, closely related to sentience: the possession of a subjective experience. It's a confused concept, which doesn't admit empirical study, just like souls or dualist free will don't. But people's belief in, and beliefs about, the concept can be studied.
why you think it is a good idea to make armchair pronouncements abut what science can do?
I never said science can't do something.
The tone of your reply seems aggressive. What did I say that you found offensive?
This is "consciousness" in the vernacular (and philosophical) sense, closely related to sentience: the possession of a subjective experience. It's a confused concept, which doesn't admit empirical study, just like souls or dualist free will don't.
And yet I know that I possess a subjective experience, and I suspect that you do to. Just because something does not currently lend itself to quantitative scientific study does not mean that it is not real.
ETA:
It's a confused concept, which doesn't admit empirical study, just like souls or dualist free will don't.
Note that much of the discussion of free will in this comments section has had nothing to do with souls or dualist free will; e.g. compatibilism has nothing to do with souls or dualism.
neither claim has a greater burden of proof than the other
That may be. Nonetheless, at the moment I believe that free is an illusion, and I have some evidence that supports that belief. I see no evidence to support the contrary belief. So if you want to convince me that free will is real then you'll have to show me some evidence.
If you don't care what I believe then you are under no obligations :-)
None of those experiments provides strong evidence
The fact that you can reliably predict some actions that people perceive as volitional up to ten seconds in advance seems like pretty strong evidence to me. But I suppose reasonable people could disagree about this. In any case, I didn't say there was strong evidence, I just said there was some evidence.
So, do you believe that consciousness is a real thing?
That depends a little on what you mean by "a real thing." Free will and consciousness are both real subjective experiences, but neither one is objectively real. Their natures are very similar. I might even go so far as to say that they are the same phenomenon. I recommend reading this book if you really want to understand it.
And, can a Turing machine be conscious?
Yes, of course. You would have to be a dualist to believe otherwise.
If so, how are we to distinguish those Turing machines that are conscious will from those that are not?
That's very tricky. I don't know. I'm pretty sure that our current methods of determining consciousness produce a lot of false negatives. But if a computer that could pass the Turing test told me it was conscious, and could describe for me what it's like to be a conscious computer, I'd be inclined to believe it.
I don't know what that means exactly, but it sounds intriguing! Do you a link or a reference with additional information?
It's not that deep. It just means that your perception of reality is different from actual reality in some pretty fundamental ways. The sun appears to revolve around the earth, but it doesn't. The chair you're sitting on seems like a solid object, but it isn't. "Up" always feels like it's the same direction, but it's not. And you feel like you have free will, but you don't. :-)
If you don't care what I believe then you are under no obligations
As a matter of fact, I think the free will question is an interesting question, but not an instrumentally important question; I can't really think of anything I would do differently if I were to change my mind on the matter. This is especially true if you are right - in that case we'd both do whatever we're going to do and it wouldn't matter at all!
Free will and consciousness are both real subjective experiences, but neither one is objectively real. Their natures are very similar. I might even go so far as to say that they are the same phenomenon.
Interesting. The reason I asked the question is that there are some thinkers who deny the reality of free will but accept the reality of consciousness (e.g. Alex Rosenberg); I was curious if you are in that camp. It sounds as though you are not.
I recommend reading this book if you really want to understand (consciousness).
Glad to see you are open to at least some of Daniel Dennett's views! (He's a compatibilist, I believe.)
It's not that deep. It (the idea that the feeling that you are living in a classical Galilean universe is a perceptual illusion) just means that your perception of reality is different from actual reality in some pretty fundamental ways. The sun appears to revolve around the earth, but it doesn't. The chair you're sitting on seems like a solid object, but it isn't. "Up" always feels like it's the same direction, but it's not.
Understood. My confusion came from the term "Galilean Universe" which I assumed was a reference to Galileo (who was actually on-board with the idea of the Earth orbiting the Sun - that is one of the things that got him into some trouble with the authorities!)
That's not a valid argument for at least four reasons:
There are many perceptual illusions, so the hypothesis that free will is an illusion is not a priori an extraordinary claim. (In fact, the feeling that you are living in a classical Galilean universe is a perceptual illusion!)
There is evidence that free will is in fact a perceptual illusion.
It makes evolutionary sense that the genes that built our brains would want to limit the extent to which they could become self-aware. If you knew that your strings were being pulled you might sink into existential despair, which is not generally salubrious to reproductive fitness.
We now understand quite a bit about how the brain works and about how computers work, and all the evidence indicates that the brain is a computer. More precisely, there is nothing a brain can do that a properly programmed Turing machine could not do, and therefore no property that a brain have that cannot be given to a Turing machine. Some Turing machines definitely do not have free will (if you believe that a thermostat has free will, well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree about that). So if free will is a real thing you should be able to exhibit some way to distinguish those Turing machines that have free will from those that do not. I have heard no one propose such a criterion that doesn't lead to conclusions that grate irredeemably upon my intuitions about what free will is (or what it would have to be if it were a real thing).
In this respect, free will really is very much like God except that the subjective experience of free will is more common than the subjective experience of the Presence of the Holy Spirit.
BTW, it is actually possible that the subjective experience of free will is not universal among humans. It is possible that some people don't have this subjective perception, just as some people don't experience the Presence of the Holy Spirit. It is possible that this lack of the subjective perception of free will is what leads some people to submit to the will of Allah, or to become Calvinists.
- There are many perceptual illusions
I agree with that
so the hypothesis that free will is an illusion is not a priori an extraordinary claim
I basically agree with that too - it is you rather than me who brought up the notion of extraordinary claims. It seems to me that the notion of extraordinary claims in this case is a red herring - that free will is real is a claim, and that free will is not real is a claim; I am simply arguing that neither claim has a greater burden of proof than the other. In fact, I think that there is room for reasonable people to disagree with regard to the free will question.
In fact, the feeling that you are living in a classical Galilean universe is a perceptual illusion!
I don't know what that means exactly, but it sounds intriguing! Do you a link or a reference with additional information?
2 There is evidence that free will is in fact a perceptual illusion
None of those experiments provides strong evidence; the article you linked lists for several of the experiments objections to interpreting the experiment as evidence against free will (e.g., per the article, "Libet himself did not interpret his experiment as evidence of the inefficacy of conscious free will"). One thing in particular that I noticed is that many of the experiments dealt with more-less arbitrary decisions - e.g. when to flick one's wrist, when to make brisk finger movements at arbitrary intervals, etc. Even if it could be shown that the brain somehow goes on autopilot when making trivial, arbitrary decisions that hold no significant consequences, it is not clear that this says anything about more significant decisions - e.g. what college to attend, how much one should spend on a house, etc.
3 It makes evolutionary sense that the genes that built our brains would want to limit the extent to which they could become self-aware. If you knew that your strings were being pulled you might sink into existential despair, which is not generally salubrious to reproductive fitness.
That is a reasonable statement and I have no argument with it. But, while it provides a possible explanation why we might perceive free will even if it does not exist, I don't think that it provides significant evidence against free will.
4 We now understand quite a bit about how the brain works and about how computers work, and all the evidence indicates that the brain is a computer. More precisely, there is nothing a brain can do that a properly programmed Turing machine could not do
I agree with that.
and therefore no property that a brain have that cannot be given to a Turing machine. Some Turing machines definitely do not have free will... So if free will is a real thing you should be able to exhibit some way to distinguish those Turing machines that have free will from those that do not.
If that statement is valid, then it seems to me that the following statement is also valid:
"There is no property that a brain can have that cannot be given to a Turing machine. Some Turing machines definitely are not conscious. So if consciousness is a real thing you should be able to exhibit some way to distinguish those Turing machines that are conscious will from those that are not."
So, do you believe that consciousness is a real thing? And, can a Turing machine be conscious? If so, how are we to distinguish those Turing machines that are conscious will from those that are not?
Yet people continually insist that they have free will. [...] Can you explain the phenomenon of free will without the existence of a deity?
There is no phenomenon of free will. There's no empiric test or observable property that tells you whether someone or something has free will. What there is, is the phenomenon of people believing they have free will. And that has various explanations.
However, it's no different from other popular beliefs with no empiric evidence. People naturally ("by default") believe in souls, the afterlife, spirits, gods, the underworld, sympathetic magic, witchcraft, the evil eye, and a hundred other things for which the existence of belief isn't strong evidence. Since free will, like souls, is pretty much by definition empirically unobservable, people's belief in it (that doesn't come with a concrete argument) in it isn't evidence for it, since the belief couldn't have been caused by observation.
There's no empiric test or observable property that tells you whether someone or something has free will.
That statement seems (currently) true enough; presumably if we could execute a free will test, someone would have done it by now and there would be no need for these debates.
You compare free will with "souls, the afterlife, spirits, gods, the underworld, sympathetic magic, witchcraft, the evil eye...". It seems to me that the notion of free will is actually more similar to the notion of consciousness than it is to those things that you list. Pretty much everyone is under the impression that he or she is conscious, and yet we can't really empirically test for consciousness. Both consciousness and free will seem like useful concepts that most people perceive and experience even though we can't empirically test for them and we may lack rigorous, universally agreed upon definitions for them.
Do you believe that consciousness is a phenomenon? If so, then what empiric test or observable property would you use to determine whether something (e.g. an artificially intelligent computing system) is conscious?
That's you pointing to a shared understanding of free and not you pointing to your private experience.
You're conflating two different things:
Attempting to communicate about a phenomenon which is rooted in a subjective experience.
Attempting to conduct that communication using words rather than, say, music or dance.
Talking about the established meaning of the word "free" has to do with #2, not #1. The fact that my personal opinion enters into the discussion has to do with #1, not #2.
I think that humans do have desire that influence the choices they make
Yes, of course I agree. But that's not the question at issue. The question is not whether we have "desires" or "will" (we all agree that we do), the question is whether or not we have FREE will. I think it's pretty clear that we do NOT have the freedom to choose our desires. At least I don't seem to; maybe other people are different. So where does this alleged freedom enter the process?
Grounding the concept of color in external reality isn't trival
I never said it was. In fact, the difficulty of grounding color perception in objective reality actually supports my position. One would expect that the grounding of free will perception in objective reality to be at least as difficult as grounding color perception, but I don't see those who support the objective reality of free will undertaking such a project, at least not here.
I'm willing to be convinced that this free will thing is real, but as with any extraordinary claim the burden is on you to prove that it is, not on me to prove that it is not.
I'm willing to be convinced that this free will thing is real, but as with any extraordinary claim the burden is on you to prove that it is, not on me to prove that it is not.
Pretty much everyone perceives himself/herself freely making choices, so the claim that free will is real is consistent with most peoples' direct experience. While this does not prove that free will is real, it does suggest that the claim that free will is real is not really any more extraordinary than the claim that it is not real. So, I do not think that the person claiming that free will is real has any greater burden of proof than the person who claims that it is not.
According to Wikipedia, yes, the Norse made it to continental North America in pre-Columbian times
I asked about the mainland. The Vikings made it to Newfoundland, certainly, but Newfoundland is an island.
I asked about the mainland
The Wikipedia article mentions that a Norwegian coin from King Olaf Kyrre's reign (1067–1093) was allegedly found in a Native American archaeological site in the state of Maine, but does not mention any definitive evidence that the Norse made it to the mainland.
Did the Vikings ever get out of Newfoundland? Is there any evidence they made it to the mainland?
According to Wikipedia, yes, the Norse made it to continental North America in pre-Columbian times and made multiple voyages there to obtain natural resources (primarily fur and timber), but did not establish any permanent colonies (perhaps due to hostile relations with the native Americans (which the Norse called the Skrælings)).
Fiction Books Thread
Jacques the Fatalist and His Master (Denis Diderot ~1796) - Relevant to the interesting free will discussion currently in lisper's spirituality post. Jacques the valet and his (unnamed) master travel together and tell each other stories along the way to kill the time. The novel is quite humorous and engaging and contains meta humor (e.g. discussions within the novel about the novel itself, discussions between the author and the reader, etc.). Its relevance to the free will question comes from the fact that Jacques frequently discusses his firmly-held belief in determinism with his skeptical master.
I doubt that many people will change their minds regarding the free will question after reading the novel, but even so, it is a clever and entertaining treatment of the subject.
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Believers can say "we've chosen to take it as a metaphor now".
But if the believers make statements referencing the past or other believers, they can't say that any more. And typically they do.
I believe you are making a charge (which I have heard made before) that the claim that some scriptural passages were intended as metaphors is a relatively recent innovation among believers to accommodate religion to modern scientific discoveries, and that it breaks with the traditional, literal interpretation of those passages. In fact, there is a long tradition among theologians to recognize that much of scripture should be interpreted metaphorically and/or allegorically rather than literally. Examples include Origen of Alexandria (late second - early third century CE) who took much of the Garden of Eden story to be allegorical, Augustine of Hippo who stated (in a work entitled The Literal Interpretation of Genesis from the early fifth century) that much of Genesis cannot and should not be interpreted literally, and Irenaeus of Lyons (second century CE) who interpreted the Garden of Eden story allegorically (in Against Heresies).
While it is certainly the case that some believers traditionally interpreted Genesis literally (and some still do), it is also the case that there is an ancient tradition of interpreting Genesis metaphorically/allegorically and so modern believers are by no means breaking with tradition if they interpret the serpent metaphorically.