Comment author: timtyler 14 May 2010 09:23:08PM *  1 point [-]

As I said, be careful about using Bayes' theorem in the case where the agent's mind is being meddled with by amnesia-inducing drugs. If Beauty had not had her mind addled by drugs, your formula would work - and p(H|D) would be equal to 1/2 on her first awakening. As it is, Beauty has lost some information that pertains to the answer she gives to the problem - namely the knowledge of whether she has been woken up before already - or not. Her uncertainty about this matter is the cause of the problem with plugging numbers into Bayes' theorem.

The theorem models her update on new information - but does not model the drug-induced deletion from her mind of information that pertains to the answer she gives to the problem.

If she knew it was Monday, p(H|D) would be about 1/2. If she knew it was Tuesday, p(H|D) would be about 0. Since she is uncertain, the value lies between these extremes.

Is over-reliance on Bayes' theorem - without considering its failure to model the problem's drug-induced amnesia - a cause of people thinking the answer to the problem is 1/2, I wonder?

Comment author: garethrees 15 May 2010 09:18:49AM 1 point [-]

If I understand rightly, you're happy with my values for p(H), p(D) and p(D|H), but you're not happy with the result. So you're claiming that a Bayesian reasoner has to abandon Bayes' Law in order to get the right answer to this problem. (Which is what I pointed out above.)

Is your argument the same as the one made by Bradley Monton? In his paper Sleeping Beauty and the forgetful Bayesian, Monton argues convincingly that a Bayesian reasoner needs to update upon forgetting, but he doesn't give a rule explaining how to do it.

Naively, I can imagine doing this by putting the reasoner back in the situation before they learned the information they forgot, and then updating forwards again, but omitting the forgotten information. (Monton gives an example on pp. 51–52 where this works.) But I can't see how to make this work in the Sleeping Beauty case: how do I put Sleeping Beauty back in the state before she learned what day it is?

So I think the onus remains with you to explain the rules for Bayesian forgetting, and how they lead to the answer ⅓ in this case. (If you can do this convincingly, then we can explain the hardness of the Sleeping Beauty problem by pointing out how little-known the rules for Bayesian forgetting are.)

Comment author: timtyler 14 May 2010 08:47:42AM *  0 points [-]

I don't see how that analysis is useful. Beauty is awake at the start and the end of the experiment, and she updates accordingly, depending on whether she believes she is "inside" the experiment or not. So, having D mean: "Sleeping Beauty is awake" does not seem very useful. Beauty's "data" should also include her knowledge of the experimental setup, her knowledge of the identity of the subject, and whether she is facing an interviewer with amnesia. These things vary over time - and so they can't usefully be treated as a single probability.

You should be careful if plugging values into Bayes' theorem in an attempt to solve this problem. It contains an amnesia-inducing drug. When Beauty updates, you had better make sure to un-update her again afterwards in the correct manner.

Comment author: garethrees 14 May 2010 10:42:17AM 1 point [-]

D is the observation that Sleeping Beauty makes in the problem, something like "I'm awake, it's during the experiment, I don't know what day it is, and I can't remember being awoken before". p(D) is the prior probability of making this observation during the experiment. p(D|H) is the likelihood of making this observation if the coin lands heads.

As I said, if your intuition tells you that p(H|D) = ⅓, then something else has to change to make the calculation work. Either you abandon or modify Bayes' Law (in this case, at least) or you need to disagree with me on one or more of p(D), p(D|H), and p(H).

Comment author: timtyler 13 May 2010 10:45:08PM *  0 points [-]

Subjective probabilities are traditionally analyzed in terms of betting behavior. Bets that are used for elucidating subjective probabilities are constructed using "scoring rules". It's a standard way of revealing such probabilities.

I am not sure what you mean by "abandoning Bayes' Law", or using "bizarre" interpretations of probability. In this case, the relevant data includes the design of the experiment - and that is not trivial to update on, so there is scope for making mistakes. Before questioning the integrity of your tools, is it possible that a mistake was made during their application?

Comment author: garethrees 13 May 2010 10:59:39PM *  0 points [-]

Bayes' Law says, p(H|D) = p(D|H) p(H) / p(D) where H is the hypothesis of interest and D is the observed data. In the Sleeping Beauty problem H is "the coin lands heads" and D is "Sleeping Beauty is awake". p(H) = ½, and p(D|H) = p(D) = 1. So if your intuition tells you that p(H|D) = ⅓, then you have to either abandon Bayes' Law, or else change one or more of the values of p(D|H), p(H) and p(D) in order to make it come out.

(We can come back to the intuition about bets once we've dealt with this point.)

Comment author: timtyler 13 May 2010 10:02:33PM *  1 point [-]

Bayesians should not answer ½. Nobody should answer ½: that's the wrong answer.

If your interpretation of the word "credence" leads you to answer ½, you are fighting with the rest of the community over the definition of the concept of subjective probability.

Comment author: garethrees 13 May 2010 10:24:11PM *  0 points [-]

That's interesting. But then you have to either abandon Bayes' Law, or else adopt very bizarre interpretations of p(D|H), p(H) and p(D) in order to make it come out. Both of these seem like very heavy prices to pay. I'd rather admit that my intuition was wrong.

Is the motivating intuition beyond your comment, the idea that your subjective probability should be the same as the odds you'd take in a (fair) bet?

Comment author: PhilGoetz 13 May 2010 08:36:57PM *  1 point [-]

Most of what you said here has already been said, and rebutted, in the comments on the Sleeping Beauties post, and in the followup post by Jonathan Lee. It would be polite, and helpful, to address those rebuttals. Simply restating arguments, without acknowledging counterarguments, could be a big part of why we don't seem to be getting anywhere.

Comment author: garethrees 13 May 2010 09:24:56PM *  2 points [-]

I did check both threads, and as far as I could see, nobody was making exactly this point. I'm sorry that I missed the comment in question: the threads were very long. If you can point me at it, and the rebuttal, then I can try to address it (or admit I'm wrong).

(Even if I'm wrong about why the problem is hard, I think the rest of my comment stands: it's a problem that's been selected for discussion because it's hard, so it might be productive to try to understand why it's hard. Just as it helps to understand our biases, it helps to understand our errors.)

Comment author: garethrees 13 May 2010 07:51:25PM *  3 points [-]

The Sleeping Beauty problem and the other "paradoxes" of probability are problems that have been selected (in the evolutionary sense) because they contain psychological features that cause people's reasoning to go wrong. People come up with puzzles and problems all the time, but the ones that gain prominence and endure are the ones that are discussed over and over again without resolution: Sleeping Beauty, Newcomb's Box, the two-envelope problem.

So I think there's something valuable to be learned from the fact that these problems are hard. Here are my own guesses about what makes the Sleeping Beauty problem so hard.

First, there's ambiguity in the problem statement. It usually asks about your "credence". What's that? Well, if you're a Bayesian reasoner, then "credence" probably means something like "subjective probability (of a hypothesis H given data D), defined by p(H|D) = p(D|H) p(H) / p(D)". But some other reasoners take "credence" to mean something like "expected proportion of observations consistent with data D in which the hypothesis H was confirmed".

In most problems these definitions give the same answer, so there's normally no need to worry about the exact definition. But the Sleeping Beauty problem pushes a wedge between them: the Bayesians should answer ½ and the others ⅓. This can lead to endless argument between the factions if the underlying difference in definitions goes unnoticed.

Second, there's a psychological feature that makes some Bayesian reasoners doubt their own calculation. (You can try saying "shut up and calculate" to these baffled reasoners but while that might get them the right answer, it won't help them resolve their bafflement.) The problem somehow persuades some people to imagine themselves as an instance of Sleeping Beauty selected uniformly from the three instances {(heads,Monday), (tails,Monday), (tails,Tuesday)}. This appears to be a natural assumption that some reasoners are prepared to make, even though there's no justification for it in the problem description.

Maybe it's the principle of indifference gone wrong: the three instances are indistinguishable (to you) but that doesn't mean the one you are experiencing was drawn from a uniform distribution.

Comment author: Jack 13 May 2010 12:32:30AM *  1 point [-]

Brave New World is definitely dystopian, not post-utopian. Nancy's suggestion for post-utopian is exactly right. I definitely agree that we can meaningfully classify cultural production, though.

Comment author: garethrees 13 May 2010 11:46:22AM 8 points [-]

I think it's both. "Brave New World" portrays a dystopia (Huxley called it a "negative utopia") but it's also post-utopian because it displays skepticism towards utopian ideals (Huxley wrote it in reaction to H. G. Wells' "Men Like Gods").

I don't claim any expertise on this subject: in fact, I hadn't heard of post-utopianism at all until I read the word in this article. It just seemed to me to be overstating the case to claim that a term like this is meaningless. Vague, certainly. Not very profound, yes. But meaningless, no.

The meaning is easily deducible: in the history of ideas "post-" is often used to mean "after; in consequence of; in reaction to" (and "utopian" is straightforward). I checked my understanding by searching Google Scholar and Books: there seems to be only one book on the subject (The post-utopian imagination: American culture in the long 1950s by M. Keith Booker) but from reading the preview it seems to be using the word in the way that I described above.

The fact that the literature on the subject is small makes post-utopianism an easier target for this kind of attack: few people are likely to be familiar with the idea, or motivated to defend it, and it's harder to establish what the consensus on the subject is. By contrast, imagine trying to claim that "hard science fiction" was a meaningless term.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 06 February 2009 07:27:02PM 13 points [-]

Nominull, neither Akon, the Lord Programmer, or the Xenopsychologist seem to be appearing in this section.

Billy Brown:

Give the furries, vampire-lovers and other assorted xenophiles a few generations to chase their dreams, and you're going to start seeing groups with distinctly non-human psychology.

WHY HAVEN'T I READ THIS STORY?

Comment author: garethrees 13 May 2010 09:07:35AM 2 points [-]

Stanislaw Lem, "The Twenty-First Voyage of Ijon Tichy", collected in "The Star Diaries".

Comment author: garethrees 12 May 2010 04:24:53PM 18 points [-]

You write, “suppose your postmodern English professor teaches you that the famous writer Wulky Wilkinsen is actually a ‘post-utopian’. What does this mean you should expect from his books? Nothing.”

I’m sympathetic to your general argument in this article, but this particular jibe is overstating your case.

There may be nothing particularly profound in the idea of ‘post-utopianism’, but it’s not meaningless. Let me see if I can persuade you.

Utopianism is the belief that an ideal society (or at least one that's much better than ours) can be constructed, for example by the application of a particular political ideology. It’s an idea that has been considered and criticized here on LessWrong. Utopian fiction explores this belief, often by portraying such an ideal society, or the process that leads to one. In utopian fiction one expects to see characters who are perfectible, conflicts resolved successfully or peacefully, and some kind of argument in favour of utopianism. Post-utopian fiction is written in reaction to this, from a skeptical or critical viewpoint about the perfectibility of people and the possibility of improving society. One expects to see irretrievably flawed characters, idealistic projects turn to failure, conflicts that are destructive and unresolved, portrayals of dystopian societies and argument against utopianism (not necessarily all of these at once, of course, but much more often than chance).

Literary categories are vague, of course, and one can argue about their boundaries, but they do make sense. H. G. Wells’ “A Modern Utopia” is a utopian novel, and Aldous Huxley’s “Brave New World” is post-utopian.

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