Comment author: CellBioGuy 12 October 2014 07:16:13PM 3 points [-]

One doesn't follow from the other, they come from the same source. Cutting off most travel = less outside help and therefore more local infection, as well as lower rate of travel out. However, allowing the exponential to continue unabated means you soon get such a high level of infection that the lower level of travel is even worse.

Comment author: gcochran 12 October 2014 09:52:20PM *  9 points [-]

Obviously you can limit travel in any way you want: you can let health workers go in and out while blocking regular travelers. Or, for that matter, you could block everyone under 20, everyone over 40, and everyone called Murphy. It does not have to be all or nothing.

If you were trying to make sense, you would let health workers fly in and quarantine them for three weeks on the way back: that's not much of an inconvenience, considering the risk. And you wouldn't let locals fly elsewhere for the duration.

" Liberia" was short hand: I mean the several countries in West Africa where the epidemic exists.

You know, discussions in this forum have a truly unusual flavor.

Comment author: Yvain 14 May 2010 09:22:31PM 4 points [-]

And what about human-caused mass death selecting for specific characteristics? For example, the Cambodian purges of intellectuals or the Communist purges of successful businesspeople. Are these too tenuous a proxy for genes to cause long-term change in alleles, or did the Cambodians and Communists do long-term harm to their genetic legacy?

Comment author: gcochran 15 May 2010 07:24:45AM *  5 points [-]

Purges in Cambodia might have changed average genotypes because they hit such a high fraction of the population. Generally it's hard to change things much in one generation, though - particularly because of loose correlations between genotypes and dreadful political fates. In the future dictators should be better at this. Now if Stalin had taken all the smartest people in the Soviet Union and forcibly paired them up, artificially inflating assortative mating for intelligence, you would have seen an effect. If you were a billionaire, you could maybe bribe people into something similar.

Comment author: harpend 11 May 2010 02:58:16AM *  10 points [-]

Hi Carl:

No word on that yet. They identified regions of the genome where there are (1) deep gene trees in Europe and/or Asia, (2) we share variants with Neanderthals, and (3) these shared variants are absent in Africa, and they found a lot of them. But if some variants in Neanderthals were positively selected in humans very early on then they would have spread through all humanity, and no one has scanned for those yet.

Our favorite candidate is the famous FOXP2 region, without which one has no speech. Every human has it, and the diversity hear it on the chromosome suggests that it is 42,000 years old in humans. Neanderthals have the human version (so far), so a likely scenario is that we stole it from Neanderthals.

HCH

Comment author: gcochran 14 May 2010 08:46:17AM 9 points [-]

Paabo seems to think it unlikely that any of these introgressed alleles had a a significant selective advantage in humans, but that's unlikely. I'll bet money on this.

To be fair, I should explain why that is a sucker bet. John Hawks and I discussed about a situation with just a few tens of matings over all time: we were making the point that even in that minimal scenario, alleles with large advantages (on the order of 5%) could jump over to modern humans. The Max Planck estimate of 2% Neanderthal admixture is far more favorable to introgression: with that much of a start, and with at least 50,000 years to grow in, any allele with a selective advantage > 0.2% is likely to be over 50% today. Many such Neanderthal alleles should be fixed in Eurasians - or in some Eurasian populations in the right environments - or even in Africans, if the allele conferred global advantages. of course we'd have trouble proving this in Africans: the Science study really shows how much more Neanderthal ancestry Eurasians have than Africans, not the absolute amount in either population.

Note that the Fisher-wave velocity goes as the square root of the selective advantage: a Neanderthal allele with an advantage of 0.2% might have spread as far as the European lactase persistence variant, which probably had a selective advantage > 10%. Today we find that allele from north India, to Iceland, to the southern fringe of the Sahara.

Introgressing advantageous alleles derived from Neanderthals are probably more likely to go to fixation than most new favorable mutations. We now suspect that the majority of alleles that give large advantages to heterozygotes give smaller advantages to homozygotes and thus never go to fixation, using a variant of Fisher's geometric argument. In the long run they are replaced by alleles that work better in homozygotes and do go to fixation - but when we stole alleles from Neanderthals, we were mostly getting old tested ones, rather than flash-in-the-pan alleles like sickle-cell.

There had to be such advantageous alleles because Neanderthals had been in Europe and west Asia for hundreds of thousands of years - they were well-adapted to that different, non-African ecology.

When there is introgression between species, transmission of adaptive alleles seems to always happen. We know a lot about some cases: one good example is introgression in cattle. Taurine cattle were domesticated in the Middle East, Zebu cattle in India, from ancestral stocks that diverged about half a million years ago. Zebu genes have introgessed a lot into African taurine cattle, in part due to known advantages in heat/aridity tolerance and rinderpest resistance. Creeping zebuization has been going on the Middle East for thousands of years. If you go as far west as Egypt, cattle are about 25% Zebu in the nuclear genome, while you don't see anyzebu mtDNA or Y-chromosomes. This kind of discordance between the introgression of mtDNA/Y chromosomes and nuclear genomes is more common than not: looks like the same thing happened to us. Plausible when you think about it. Neanderthal mtDNA may well have had a selective disadvantage: they may have been blatant heat-wasters, since they had crummy clothing. Small population size might also have resulted in somewhat bunged up mtDNA, since selection is less efficient then.

Obviously some Neanderthal alleles had a selective disadvantage in humans, for example those that determined their different body form. Many more must have been effectively neutral, with no noticeable advantage over the version in anatomically modern humans. But some must have been useful - and the more useful they were, the more common they are today.

There seems to be a pattern in which an invasive species shows up, hangs around in an unspectacular way for sometime while it's picking up alleles from local sister species, and then spreads out irresistibly. We generally call those cosmopolitan species weeds.

Were some of those introgessing Neanderthal genes adaptive? Had to be. Do they account for the cultural big bang somewhat later? It would make sense, but it's not a lock. I'd call it likely.

Comment author: CarlShulman 12 May 2010 08:22:11PM 2 points [-]

Biologists mostly don't believe in theory: even when its predictions come true, they're not impressed.

Because theory in the field is so often wrong that they treat successes as a stopped clock being right twice a day? Or something more complex?

Comment author: gcochran 14 May 2010 06:59:07AM *  7 points [-]

There are sub-patterns. There are facts about natural selection that every plant geneticist knows that few human geneticists will accept without a fight. I mean, really, Henry, when a prominent human geneticist says " You don't really believe that bit about lactase persistence being selected, do you?" , or when someone even more famous asks "So why would there be more mutations in a bigger population?" - their minds ain't right.

Comment author: Roko 11 May 2010 11:20:19AM *  9 points [-]

Do you have an overall view on the feasibility and timeline for genetic engineering of human intelligence?

For example, at what odds would you bet that we will have the ability to create hundreds of IQ +6 sigma super-geniuses by 2020 (for a reasonable cost, e.g. total project cost <$1bn)? 2030? 2040? 2050? 2075?

This is quite relevant for people interested in the singularity, because if it is highly feasible (and there are some who think it is), then it could provide a route to singularity that is independent of software AI progress, thereby forcing a rational observer to include an additional factor in favor of extreme scientific progress in the 21st century.

Comment author: gcochran 14 May 2010 06:25:28AM *  14 points [-]

I would say that it is some sense obvious that higher intelligence is possible, because the process that led to whatever intelligence we have was haphazard (path-dependent, stochastic, and all that) and because what optimization did occur was under severe constraints - some of which no longer apply. Clearly, the best possible performance under severe constraints is inferior to the best possible with fewer constraints.

So, if C-sections allow baby heads to get bigger, or if calories are freely available today, changes in brain development that take advantage of those relaxed constraints ought to be feasible. In principle this does not have to result in people who are damaged or goofy, although they would not do well in ancestral environments. In practice, since we won't know what the hell we are doing... of course it will.

Still, that's too close to an existence proof: it doesn't really tell you how to do it.

You could probably get real improvements by mining existing genetic variation: look at individuals and groups with unusually high IQs, search for causal variants. Plomin and company haven't any real success ( in terms of QTLs that explain much of the variance) but for this purpose one doesn't care about variance explained, just effect size. A rare allele that does the job would be useful. I'd look at groups with high average IQ, but at others also.

There are other possible approaches. If you could error-correct the genome, fix all the mutational noise, you might see higher IQ. You could dig up Gauss and clone him. My favorite idea is finding two human ethnic groups that 'nick' - whose F1 offspring exhibit hybrid vigor.

As for the singularity: I could, I think, make a pretty good case that scientific and technological progress is slowing down.

Comment author: LauraABJ 12 May 2010 04:46:36PM 1 point [-]

I have always been curious about the effects of mass-death on human genetics. Is large scale death from plague, war, or natural-disaster likely to have much effect on the genetics of cognitive architecture, or are outcomes generally too random? Is there evidence for what traits are selected for by these events?

Comment author: gcochran 14 May 2010 04:02:17AM 7 points [-]

Too random to have much effect, I should think. And at the same time, not awful enough to reduce the population to the point where drift would become important. Unless we're talking asteroid impacts.

One can imagine exceptions. For example, if alleles that gave resistance to some deadly plague had negative side effects on intelligence, then you'd see an effect. Note that negative side effects are much more likely than positive side effects.

I know of some neat anecdotal exceptions. Von Neumann got out of Germany in 1930, while the getting was good. When a friend said that Germany was oh-so-cultured and that there was nothing to worry about, Von Neumann didn't believe it. He started quoting the Melian dialogue - pointed out that the Athenians had been pretty cultured. High intelligence helped save his life.

Comment author: harpend 11 May 2010 03:25:51AM 13 points [-]

That is a big and interesting question. I do not think that evolutionary biology needed more math at all: they would have done better with less I think. The only math needed (so far) in thinking about acceleration is the result that the fixation probability of a new mutant is 1/2N if it is neutral and 2s if it has selective advantage s. The other important equation is that the change in a quantitative trait is the product of the heritability and the selective differential (the difference between the mean of the population and the mean of parents).

The history is that there was a ruckus in the 1960s between the selectionists and the new sect of neutralism, and neutralism more or less won. Selectionists persisted but that literature has a focus on bacteria in chemostats, plants, yeast, and such. Neutralism answered lots of questions and is associated with some lovely math, but as we took it up we (many of us) lost sight of real evolutionary issues.

Milford Wolpoff, in a review of our book in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology points out that his student Dave Frayer collected a lot of data on changes in European skull size and shape that implied very rapid evolution. In other words we "knew it all along" but never paid attention. In fact Cochran and I "knew" it but never put it together with the new findings from SNP chips. John Hawks did, right away.

So fashion rules and we it is difficult to get away from it I suppose.

Comment author: gcochran 12 May 2010 04:23:09AM 13 points [-]

Hawks and I were talking about new genetic studies that showed a surprising number of sweeps, more than you'd expect from the long-term rate of change - and simultaneously noticed that there sure are a lot more people then there used to be - all potential mutants.

As for why someone didn't point this out earlier - say in 1930, when key results were available - I blame bad traditions in biology. Biologists mostly don't believe in theory: even when its predictions come true, they're not impressed.

My advantage, at least in part, comes from have had exactly one biology course in my entire life, which I took in the summer of my freshman year of high school, in a successful effort to avoid dissecting. If I ever write a scientific autobiography, it will be titled "Avoiding the Frog".

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 11 May 2010 03:58:15AM 7 points [-]

Michael Vassar is having trouble accessing this site right now, so asked me to relay this question:

You mention in your book (p. 69) that from 100,000 BC to 12,000 BC, the human population increased from half a million to six million thanks to better hunting tools and techniques. On the other hand, from page 100 onwards, you discuss Malthusian limits to population, implying that the sizes of primitive populations were proportional to the amount of food available. In other words, you seem to be saying that from 100,000 BC to 12,000 BC, the human population grew because better hunting techniques increased the availability of food.

But better hunting technologies won't generally tend to raise Malthusian limits strongly. While hunting better will mean that new prey become exploitable, it also means that old prey are continually hunted to extinction. The net result isn't a systematic trend. How strong is the evidence for any prehistoric population sizes? How do the implied population densities compare to those for other large omnivores, such as black bears and pigs, in their territories, or to the population densities at which Chimps live? Why would human densities have been much lower?

Comment author: gcochran 11 May 2010 08:21:32PM *  9 points [-]
 Better hunting techniques can significantly raise Malthusian limits.

First, you have to remember that old-fashioned humans were one predator among many: improved hunting techniques could raise our share of the pot, as well as decreasing other predators' tendency to eat us. Also, modern humans seem to have used carcasses more efficiently than Neanderthals: they had permafrost storage pits and drying racks, so could have preserved meat for long periods. Neanderthals didn't, and I think they must have wasted a lot. Next, moderns used snares, traps, nets, bows etc to catch smaller game not much harvested by Neanderthals: they also made more use of fish and molluscs. And lastly, more plant foods. Altogether, their innovations gave them a larger share of the game, used that share more efficiently, tapped marine resources (lots of salmon in Europe), and harvested resources at a lower trophic level ( plants for example), which are always more abundant.

Hunting to extinction happened in some places, but not everywhere: it hardly happened in Africa at all. It happened most in places with no previous hominid occupation.

Implied population densities are, I think, extrapolations from known hunter gatherers, salted with some archeological info. Estimated densities range from 0.01/km sq to 1/km sq, strongly dependent upon resources. A lot like those of bears. Lower than chimps, probably: but then chimps manage with a lower-quality diet than humans. We're probably not as good at digesting leaves as they are.

Probably you have to consider Pleistocene climate as well: the world was generally nastier - colder, drier, lower plant productivity due to low CO2 levels.