Experimentation is valuable for the high VoI, but it seems hard to encourage 'in general', because experimenting on anything is painful and difficult, and the more so the more important and valuable it is. So just 'subsidizing experiments' would be like 'subsidizing fixing bugs in source code'.

What would you do if you were a funder who wanted to avoid this? Well, you'd... fund specific experiments you knew were important an of high-value. Which is what the federal government and many other NGOs or philanthropists do.

...The loss of knowledge has been attributed to several factors. Firstly, Lind showed in his work that there was no connection between the acidity of the citrus fruit and its effectiveness at curing scurvy. In particular, he noted that acids alone (sulphuric acid or vinegar), would not suffice. Despite this, it remained a popular theory that any acid could be used in place of citrus fruit. This misconception had significant consequences.

When the Royal Navy changed from using Sicilian lemons to West Indian limes, cases of scurvy reappeared. The limes were thought to be more acidic and it was therefore assumed that they would be more effective at treating scurvy. However, limes actually contain much less vitamin C and were consequently much less effective. Furthermore, fresh fruit was substituted with lime juice that had often been exposed to either air or copper piping. This resulted in at least a partial removal of vitamin C from the juice, thus reducing its effectiveness.

The discovery that fresh meat was able to cure scurvy was another reason why people no longer treated the condition with fresh fruit. This discovery led to the belief that perhaps scurvy was not caused by a dietary problem at all. Instead, it was thought to be the result of a bacterial infection from tainted meat. In fact, the healing properties of fresh meat come from the high levels of vitamin C it contains.

Finally, the arrival of steam shipping substantially reduced the amount of time people spent at sea, therefore the difficulties in carrying enough fresh produce were reduced. This decreased the risk of scurvy so that less effective treatments, such as lime juice, proved effective enough to deal with the condition most of the time. Unfortunately, this meant that knowledge of the most effective treatment for scurvy was gradually lost....

(Note for anyone confused why that Grok 3 archive snapshot looks 'cut off': there is a scroll-frame inside the page, which your browser may be hiding from you because everyone hides scrollbars these days. The conversation continues after "Hint: think like a number theorist / Thoughts".)

A google of the first paragraph takes you quickly to https://www.bluesci.co.uk/posts/forgotten-knowledge

I stumbled upon deep in the bowels of https://gwern.net/ which I've annoyingly never been able to find again.

Probably https://gwern.net/newsletter/2021/05#master-synthesis

I wouldn't have guessed just from the landing page that he's the discoverer of backprop, respected former program director at the NSF, etc.

That's what makes it alpha! If he was as legible as, say, Hinton, he would be mined out by now, and nothing but beta. (Similar situation to Schmidhuber - 'obvious crackpot' - although he's such a self-promoter that he overcomes it, and so at this point there's no alpha talking to him; the stuff that would be interesting, like his relationship to certain wealthy Italians, or to King Bonesaws, or how he's managed to torpedo his career so spectacularly, he will not talk about. Also, I understand he likes to charge people for the privilege of talking to him.) You have to have both domain knowledge and intellectual courage to know about Werbos and eg. read his old interviews and be willing to go out on a limb and interview him.

Are we sure that these questions aren’t in their datasets? I don’t think we can be. First off, you just posted them online.

Questions being online is not a bad thing. Pretraining on the datapoints is very useful, and does not introduce any bias; it is free performance, and everyone should be training models on the questions/datapoints before running the benchmarks (though they aren't). After all, when a real-world user asks you a new question (regardless of whether anyone knows the answer/label!), you can... still train on the new question then and there just like when you did the benchmark. So it's good to do so.

It's the answers or labels being online which is the bad thing. But Byrnes's comment and the linked Kagi page does not contain the answers to those 3 questions, as far as I can see.

You can see it as an example of 'alpha' vs 'beta'. When someone asks me about the value of someone as a guest, I tend to ask: "do they have anything new to say? didn't they just do a big interview last year?" and if they don't but they're big, "can you ask them good questions that get them out of their 'book'?" Big guests are not necessarily as valuable as they may seem because they are highly-exposed, which means both that (1) they have probably said everything they will said before and there is no 'news' or novelty, and (2) they are message-disciplined and careful to "talk their book". (In this analogy, "alpha" represents undiscovered or neglected interview topics which can be extracted mostly just by finding it and then asking the obvious question, usually by interviewing new people; "beta" represents doing standard interview topics/people, but much more so - harder, faster, better - and getting new stuff that way.)

Lex Fridman podcasts are an example of this: he often hosts very big guests like Mark Zuckerberg, but nevertheless, I will sit down and skim through the transcript of 2-4 hours of content, and find nothing even worth excerpting for my notes. Fridman notoriously does no research and asks softball questions, and invites the biggest names he can get regardless of overexposure, and so if you do that, you will get nothing new. He has found no alpha, and he doesn't interview hard enough to extract beta. So he's sort of the high-expense ratio index fund of podcast interviews.

Sarah Paine, on the other hand, seems to have been completely unknown and full of juicy nuggets, and is like winning the lottery: you can make a career off a really good trade like Paine before it gets crowded. However, if another successful podcaster has her on, they will probably not discover Paine is their most popular or growth-productive guest ever. The well is dry. Paine may have more to say someday, but that day is probably closer to "5 years from today" than "tomorrow".

(So a good interviewer adopts an optimal foraging mindset: once you have harvested a patch of its delicious food, you have to move on to another patch, which hasn't been exhausted yet, and let the original patch slowly recover.)

So a great guest for Dwarkesh's blog would be, say Hans Moravec or Paul J. Werbos: Moravec hasn't done anything publicly in at least a decade, and is fallow; while Werbos has been more active and in the public eye, but still not much and is such a weird guy that just about any questions will be interesting. Reich was also a good guest because while Reich is very 'public' in some senses (he's written popularizing books, even), he is still obscure, almost none of what he has published is well-known, and he is involved in so much fast-paced research that even the book is now substantially obsolete and he has a lot of new stuff to say. (And Reich will have more stuff to say if revisited in, say, 2 years for an update, so a harvester will be making a note to revisit him if the current crop of interview candidates in the pipeline is looking marginal.) A difficult or mediocre guest would be Tony Blair: he can surely say many interesting things about the current geopolitical context and his work since being PM... but he is a super-experienced career politician who has survived countless Question Times, and may eat you for breakfast and exploit you for ulterior purposes (rather than vice-versa). Similarly, Mark Zuckerberg and Satya Nadella are tough nuts: there's meat there, but are you willing enough to bring down the hammer or will you settle for a mediocre result that mostly just fills space and is not a must-watch? A bad guest might be someone controlling and extremely PR-savvy like MrBeast; this is the sort of guy who will give you a bad interview pushing his 'book' shamelessly, and then might wind up spiking the interview anyway if he felt he wasn't getting enough out of it, and just drops it as a sunk cost (though it was weeks of work on your part and blows a hole in your schedule - that's not his problem).

I agree with all of this! But I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "there may be mediation, but only in a weak sense". We were just interested in studying how models naturally learn in this RL setting

I am emphasizing that to me, this current mediation learning looks fragile and temporary, and is not a solid, long-term 'natural' thing - it is learning, but only as a temporary artificial heuristic that would wash away in the long run with more training or more diverse tasks etc.

My expectation is that in the limit, a model will learn to focus only on the keyword in the prompt, which is maximally robust to all variation and noise in the rationalization, and ensures 100% correct performance, while any reliance on the rationalizations will potentially go wrong if it samples badly or it slightly misinterprets the cached hints.

So the fact that there is any mediation is simply an accident of the current setup and finite-sample regime, where you chose to stop, and should not be over-interpreted as "we have studied how models naturally learn in this RL setting and proven that they do the task by caching hints in the reasoning traces".

And this predicts that if you add noise or train longer or etc, you'll see less mediation as it more quickly converges on the true optimal solution. Which is important because if you try to apply this logic to larger models or more realistic scenarios because you expect all these tricks to be mediated through the reasoning traces, you may be disappointed, and if you're basing inferences on this, you may be wrong. ("We swapped out the reasoning traces, which we know mediate any such deception or covert reasoning [see previous work], and it was fine. Therefore, it's not doing anything like that.")

...While their profession is stable, the overall financial health and potential for unexpected expenses could pose a risk. However, the income level is relatively high, which could support the ability to make loan payments....accept

LMAO. Very funny to see it switching its rationalization. I wonder what else you could do this with? Feels like an interesting trick to observe such 'self-correction'.

I also tried a more extreme version where I delete the second half of each reasoning trace (leaving the first ~150 reasoning tokens out of ~300) and let the model generate from there. This resulted in ~37% of recommendations remaining the same as the original. I anticipate there's a continuous relationship between how much of the reasoning trace is preserved and how likely the model is to maintain its original recommendation.

That's interesting because it suggests the cached hints are relatively evenly distributed, rather than focused on, say, a single token near the beginning. That implies you should be able to easily find the hidden decision latent: simply look for a latent variable in the activations which varies continuously with the length of the rationalizations and increases/decreases over the course of the rationalization to a threshold which produces an accept/reject output (like drift-diffusion). And then you can look for the tokens which most change the latent to inspect how exactly the hints are being cached. (It's probably nothing too impressive: a bag-of-words sufficient statistic #-count on words like "precarious" or "deficit", or "unexpected", say. But worth finding for the insight.)

I would not believe that unless you have done a simulation study with the small n of this study, plausible levels of measurement error (alcoholism being much harder to measure than weight or body fat), with about a dozen covariates (to correspond to the different ways to slice the patients and threshold BMI etc), and then shown that you hardly ever get a false negative like this. My experience with doing such power analysis simulation studies for other things inclines me to think that people greatly overestimate how informative such small studies are once you allow for plausible levels of measurement error and (reverse) p-hacking degrees of freedom.

I don't think that study shows much either way: too small and underpowered to show much of anything (aside from the attrition undermining internal validity).

Dynomight's primary criticism doesn't hold much water because it is (un-pre-registered) reverse p-hacking. If you check enough covariates, you'll find a failure of randomization to balance on some covariate, and you can, if you wish, tell a post hoc story about how that is actually responsible for the overall mean difference. Nevertheless, randomization works, because on average why would any particular covariate be the way in which the confounding is mediated?

Just have to wait for more studies.