Comment author: Peterdjones 12 November 2012 10:18:40AM 0 points [-]

You haven't given any evidence for those claims. At one time it was believed that minds were indestructible, atomic entities, but now we know we have billions of neurons there is plenty of scope for one neuronal cohort to believe or feel things that another does not.

Comment author: hannahelisabeth 13 November 2012 03:48:31PM 0 points [-]

Sure, that's true. I suppose you could have a split-brain person who is happy in one hemisphere and not in the other, or some such type of situation. I guess it just depends on what you're looking for when you ask "is someone happy?" If you want a subjective feeling, then self-report data will be reliable. If you're looking for specific physiological states or such, then self-report data may not be necessary, and may even contradict your findings. But it seems suspect to me that you would call it happiness if it did not correspond to a subjective feeling of happiness.

Comment author: raptortech97 19 April 2012 09:04:08PM *  1 point [-]

I benefit from believing people are nicer than they actually are.

I empathize with her here. I believe that it is in my advantage to act towards people the way I would act if they were nicer than they actually are. I'll try to parse that out. Let's say Alice is talking to Bob. Cindy, at a different time, also talks to Bob. Bob is a jerk; we assume he is not nice.

  • Alice honestly expects that Bob is nicer than he actually is, and accordingly she is nice to Bob.
  • Cindy honestly expects that Bob is exactly as nice as he actually is, and accordingly she is dismissive of Bob.

I expect that Bob will be nicer towards Alice than towards Cindy. (Warning: This is starting to feel like a belief, suggesting that it is actually a belief in belief.) My theory is that I should act like Alice. Of course, there are alternatives, like simply being to nice to people.

I hope this comment made sense to you. I know I'm pretty confused about it myself now.

Comment author: hannahelisabeth 12 November 2012 09:57:42AM 0 points [-]

I think when you parse this out you realize that there are a lot of other factors at play here, it's not just a "belief in belief" thing.

Treating someone nicely has an influence on how they subsequently treat you and others. So it's not so much that you're believing someone is nice when they're not, it's that you're believing that they do not have a fixed property state of "niceness", that it is variable dependent on conditions, which you can then manipulate to promote niceness, for the benefit of yourself and others.

None of this is belief in belief. When you look closer you see that you are comparing two different things: how nice Bob has been in the past and how nice Bob will be in the present/future, dependent on what type of environment he is in, and you are thus modifying your behavior on the assumption that your contribution to the environment can make it such that Bob will be nice, or at least nicer. And there is evidence to support this assumption, so it's not irrational to expect Bob to be(come) nice when treat him nicely accordingly.

It's just misleading to phrase it as "I benefit from believing perople are nicer than they are," because what you mean by the first "are" (will be) is not the same as what you mean by the second "are" (have been).

Comment author: pure-awesome 09 June 2012 11:10:44AM *  7 points [-]

"I wish I could believe that no one could possibly believe in belief in belief in belief..."

You wish you could believe Eliezer? Is this a dliberate stroke of irony or a subconcious hint at the fact that you do have an empathic understanding of the thought processes behind tailoring your own beliefs?

Comment author: hannahelisabeth 12 November 2012 09:49:56AM 4 points [-]

I think the idea behind this is that he wishes reality played out in such a way that, to a rational observer, it would engender belief. It's a roundabout way of saying "I wish reality were such that..."

Comment author: Peterdjones 11 November 2012 10:43:48PM 0 points [-]

There's no self-deception, then?

Comment author: hannahelisabeth 12 November 2012 08:40:18AM 0 points [-]

Only retroactively. Our memories are easy to corrupt. But no, I don't think you can be happy or unhappy at any given moment and simultaneously believe the opposite is true. There's probably room for the whole "belief in belief" thing here, though. That is, you could want to believe you're happy when you're not, and could maybe even convince yourself that you had convinced yourself that you were happy, but I don't think you'd actually believe it.

Comment author: Kindly 12 November 2012 01:54:59AM 0 points [-]

It's hard to be mistaken about how happy you are at the precise moment you're asked the question (you might have trouble reporting exactly how happy you are, but that's different). However, if you want to know how happy you've been over the past month, for example, it's possible to be wrong about that; you could be selectively remembering times you were more or less happy than average.

Comment author: hannahelisabeth 12 November 2012 08:37:43AM 0 points [-]

True. Still, the method of measuring serotonin and dopamine levels would offer no benefit over a self-evaluation, since you can't implement it retroactively.

Comment author: J_Thomas 15 September 2007 01:04:04PM 10 points [-]

...you will think to yourself, "And now, I will irrationally believe that I will win the lottery, in order to make myself happy." But we do not have such direct control over our beliefs. You cannot make yourself believe the sky is green by an act of will.

In my experience, this is not true.

My father was a dentist, and when I was 7 he learned hypnosis to use to anesthetise his patients. Of course he practiced on me while he was learning. (As it turned out, he did successful anesthesia with it for a few years before people started spreading stories that hypnosis was dangerous mind-control and he quit.)

With posthypnotic suggestion people can easily believe things that they have no reason to believe, remember things they did not experience, and ignore their senses up to a point. I've done it. It all feels real.

I learned to hypnotise people a little, and I learned how to do it on myself. It certainly can be done. You do have that control over your beliefs, if you're willing to use it.

Which is not to say it's a good idea. IME the main time it's useful to make yourself believe something is when you have nothing to lose by burning your bridges, when you lose everything anyway if the belief is wrong. Then you might as well believe it wholeheartedly.

I've read that interest in hypnosis has something like an eleven year cycle. People start to think there's something interesting there. They start studying it, and get some fascinating results that look some ways powerful. Then as they keep studying they find that all the unexpected things people can do under hypnosis they can also do without hypnosis. And then they start to see that a lot of people are basicly walking around hypnotised a lot of the time. They start to wonder what exactly they're studying, and they quit, and after the subject lies fallow awhile more people get interested and it starts again.

Basicly all it takes for hypnosis is that the person relax and listen uncritically. If they're willing to believe what they're told, they're hypnotised. All the peculiar abilities people sometimes display when told to under hypnosis, are things they could do but normally don't believe they can do. When they give up their scepticism they go ahead and do their best instead of doubting themselves and hesitating. They're willing to believe delusions for somebody they trust, and when the limits of the trust show up or they get emphatic evidence against the delusion, then they rethink.

You really can deceive yourself. You can build false memories and believe them. You can make the sky look a little green, particularly on a cloudy day, and you can build on that until it looks pretty green -- provided the idea of a green sky doesn't offend you too much. If you believe it's impossible you can't see it. If it's "I didn't know that was even possible, I wonder why it's happening now?" then you can.

These are things that anybody can learn to do. But I mostly agree with your arguments that it is not generally a useful skill. If I get a toothache I don't anesthetise it until after I get my dentist appointment, and if I miss the appointment the pain comes back. Pain is your signal that something is going wrong with your body, and in general it's a bad idea to ignore that.

Comment author: hannahelisabeth 11 November 2012 11:18:59PM 1 point [-]

Not everyone can be hypnotized. About a quarter of people can't be hypnotized, according to research at Stanford.

I've tried to be hypnotized before and it didn't work. I think I'm just not capable of making myself that open to suggestion, even though I would have liked to have been hypnotized.

I heard from one of my psychology professors that those on the extreme ends of the IQ spectrum (both high and low) have more trouble being hypnotized, but I'm not sure if this is actually true. The Stanford research showed that hypnotizability wasn't correlated with any personality traits, but I probably wouldn't consider IQ a personality trait.

Comment author: Tiiba2 14 September 2007 10:19:09PM 0 points [-]

This thing about depressed people being unbiased makes no sense to me. Maybe they're not overconfident, but aren't they underconfident instead? I'd find it pretty surprising if a mental illness was correlated with common sense.

Anyway, perhaps the key to being rational and happy is suppressing not facts, but fear of them. No, you can't have a pony. Get over it.

Comment author: hannahelisabeth 11 November 2012 10:37:32PM 2 points [-]

I think it's not underconfident because our over-confidence is so high that it really is hard to be pessimistic enough to match reality. Depressed people seem to have just enough pessimism to compensate (but not overcompensate) for this bias. I don't think that necessarily makes them have more common sense. Even just in terms of being more realistic, this is only one bias that they compensate for. It's not like depression magically cures any of the other biases.

Depressed people also have a tendency to have an external locus of control, and that is not necessarily rational. You may not be able to control the situations you're in, but it's often the case that your actions do have a significant impact on them, so believing that you have very little or no control is often not rational.

Comment author: Tom_Breton 14 September 2007 08:51:22PM 10 points [-]

What if self-deception helps us be happy? What if just running out and overcoming bias will make us - gasp! - unhappy?

You are aware, I'm sure, of studies that connect depression and freedom from bias, notably overconfidence in one's ability to control outcome.

You've already given one answer: to deliberately choose to believe what our best judgement tells us isn't so would be lunacy. Many people are psychologically able to fool themselves subtly, but fewer are able to deliberately, knowingly fool themselves.

Another answer is that even though depression leads to freedom from some biases and illusions, the converse doesn't seem to apply. Overcoming bias doesn't seem to lead to depression. I don't get the impression that a disproportionate number of people on this list are depressed. In my own experience, losing illusions doesn't make me feel depressed. Even if the illusion promised something desirable, I think what I have usually felt was more like intellectual relief, "So that's why (whatever was promised) never seemed to work."

Comment author: hannahelisabeth 11 November 2012 10:30:09PM 0 points [-]

I'd heard of the connection between depression and more accurate perceptions (notably, more accurate predictions due to less overconfidence), but I wasn't aware of the causal direction. It had been portrayed to me as being that the improved perception of reality was the cause of the depression. Or maybe I just mistakenly inferred it and didn't notice. I didn't know it actually went the other way, though now that I think about it, that actually makes a lot of sense.

Personally, I find that imroved map-territory correspondence leads to more happiness, at least the improved rationality which results from learning Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy. It's not just losing illusions that helps. It's better understanding yourself, better understanding what is actually causing your emotions, and realizing that you have a more internal locus of control rather than external regarding your emotions. It's liberating to be able to stop an emotional reaction in its tracks, analyze it, recognize it as following from an irrational belief, and consequently substitute the irrational emotion for a rational one. It helps especially with anger and anxiety, as those have a tendency to result from irrational, dogmatic beliefs.

Comment author: Acidmind 20 August 2012 10:45:55AM -1 points [-]

By comparing a written self-evaluation and serotonin and dopamine levels in ones brain, perhaps?

Comment author: hannahelisabeth 11 November 2012 10:19:08PM 3 points [-]

How would you calibrate a brain scan machine to happiness except by comparing it to self-evaluated happiness? You only know that certain neural pathways correspond to happiness because people report being happy while these pathways are activated. If someone had different brain circuitry (like, say, someone born with only half a brain), you wouldn't be able to use this metric except by first seeing how their brain pattern corresponded to their self-reported happiness. It seems to me that happiness simply is the perception of happiness. There is no difference between "believing you're happy" and "being happy." You can't be secretly happy or unhappy and not know it, 'cause that wouldn't constitute happiness.

Comment author: DanielLC 11 November 2012 08:44:59PM 4 points [-]

You need a prior to take evidence into account. If the prior is evidence, then what is the prior?

Comment author: hannahelisabeth 11 November 2012 09:20:12PM 3 points [-]

Hm... You make a good point. I'm not sure I understand this conceptually well enough to have any sort of coherent response.

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