Comment author: TheOtherDave 14 November 2012 07:55:35PM 0 points [-]

Um.
OK... I still seem to be missing the point.

So I have a choice between A. "Save 400 lives, allow (N-400) people to die, with certainty." and
B. "Save 500 lives (allow N-500 people to die), 90% probability; save no lives (allow N people to die), 10% probability."

Are you suggesting that my choice between A and B ought to depend on N?
If so, why?

Comment author: hannahelisabeth 14 November 2012 08:55:33PM 1 point [-]

It doesn't depend on N if N is consistent between options A and B, but it would if they were different. It would make for an odd hypothetical scenario, but I was just saying that it's not made completely explicit.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 14 November 2012 02:04:32PM 2 points [-]

Huh.
Can you clarify exactly why it matters?
That is... I recognize that on a superficial level it feels like it matters, so if you're making a point about how to manipulate human psychology, then I understand that.
OTOH, if you're making an ethical point about the value of life, I don't quite understand why the value of those 400 lives is dependent on how many people there are in... well, in what? The world? The galaxy? The observable universe? The unobservable universe? Other?

Comment author: hannahelisabeth 14 November 2012 08:53:51PM 1 point [-]

I'm making a point about human psychology. The value of a life obviously does not change.

Although, I suppose theoretically, if the concern is not over individual lives, but over the survival of the species as a whole, and there are only 500 people to be saved, then picking the 400 option would make sense.

Comment author: ArisKatsaris 14 November 2012 02:03:24PM *  0 points [-]

As MugaSofer said, it doesn't need be 400/500, it may be 400/1,000,000 vs (500/1,000,000 with 90% probability). The original question indicated "Suppose that a disease, or a monster, or a war, or something, is killing people. "

Imagine that hundreds of thousand lives are getting lost.

If you leave out writing out that 100 people are dying, you're also subtly encouraging your readers to forget about those people as well, so it comes as little surprise that some would prefer option 1.

How about the following rephrasing?

There's a natural catastrophe (e.g. a tsunami) occuring that will claim >100,000 lives. You have two options:

  1. Save 400 lives, with certainty.
  2. Save 500 lives, 90% probability; save no lives, 10% probability.
Comment author: hannahelisabeth 14 November 2012 08:50:46PM 0 points [-]

I think that rephrasing improves it.

Comment author: MugaSofer 14 November 2012 01:52:28PM 0 points [-]

For all we know, billions of lives could be lost, with certainty; the question is how many we can save.

Comment author: hannahelisabeth 14 November 2012 01:57:09PM -1 points [-]

Or, for all we know, there are only 400 lives to be saved in the first instance. Saving 400 out of 400 is different than saving 400 out of 7 billion. The context of the proposition makes a difference, and it's always best to be clear and unambiguous in the paramaters which will necessarily guide ones decision as to which choice is the best.

In response to Something to Protect
Comment author: hannahelisabeth 14 November 2012 01:40:05PM *  0 points [-]
  1. Save 400 lives, with certainty.
  2. Save 500 lives, 90% probability; save no lives, 10% probability.

I think it ought to be made explicit in the first scenario that 100 lives are being lost with certainty, because it's not necessarily implied by the proposition. I know a lot of people inferred it, but the hypothetical situation never stated it was 400/500, so it could just as easily be 400/400, in which case choosing it would certianly be preferable to the second option. I think it's important you make your hypothetical situations clear and unambiguous. Besides, a 100% probability of 100 deaths explicitly stated will influence the way people perceive the question. If you leave out writing out that 100 people are dying, you're also subtly encouraging your readers to forget about those people as well, so it comes as little surprise that some would prefer option 1.

In response to Feeling Rational
Comment author: gokhalea 30 October 2012 03:21:15AM 0 points [-]

what about applying rationality to the emotional situations themselves? when your family member dies by virtue of someone elses mistake/accident, does rationality require (in its purest sense) that we evaluate the situation without the emotions that a family member often feels? if not, what if a third party "rationally" evaluates the situation differently? (e.g. "your family member was equally at fault") . Can two different viewpoints about the same event be rational, taking into account each decision maker's relative emotions (or lack thereof)?

In response to comment by gokhalea on Feeling Rational
Comment author: hannahelisabeth 13 November 2012 10:36:26PM 3 points [-]

Rationality doesn't require that you not feel the emotions, it just requires that you avoid letting them bias you towards one conclusion over another. You should follow the evidence to determine the level of guilt of the perpetrator. There is no causal link from how you feel about the event to how it actually happened. I'd have to say that in terms of interpreting the event, there is no room to "agree to disagree" if all the facts are understood and agreed upon. Certainly there's room to feel differently about it based on your own relative situation, but it has no bearing on the interpretation of the event.

The way I see it, emotions and reason serve two complimentary functions. Emotions tell you your goal, what you want. Reason tells you how to get there. Your emotions may say "Go south!" and reason may say "There is an obstacle in my path. In order to reach my destination, I need to first make a detour." If you allow your emotions to override your sense of reason, you'll try to go south and plow straight into the wall, and that lack of reason will hinder your ability to achieve your desired ends. If you think that reason is the way and emotions are the enemy and thus undervalue your emotions, you'll wander around aimlessly, as you'll have no sense of where it is you actually want to go. If one were truly Spock-like, and bad events failed to result in negative affect, there would be no reason to think of them as bad and thus no logical reason to avoid them. (Here you could argue that, well, if it affects other people negatively, that would be reason. But in that case you're assuming empathy--that when bad things happen to others, it makes you feel bad, which is an emotional response.)

In response to Feeling Rational
Comment author: GracefulDave 18 November 2011 08:25:05AM -1 points [-]

Emotions can result in conclusions that do not arise rationally. You don't CHOOSE to be angry, and this anger can make your decision for you.

We are also very well acquainted with hindsight. We can look back on a situation that resolved itself in a way we would have avoided, if only we hadn't been so emotional. I really feel that the emotionless state is the default.

Comment author: hannahelisabeth 13 November 2012 10:22:23PM 1 point [-]

To some extent this is true. Strong emotions do have the power to shut down activity in the executive centers of the brain. There's a physiological basis for the idea of "seeing red" when you're angry. However, you can also train yourself to stop your emotional reactions in their tracks, think about them, and change them. You can choose not to be angry, but you likely need education and training to do so, and you may not be successful 100% of the time. But you can certainly improve dramatically.

In response to Feeling Rational
Comment author: Grognor 21 October 2011 07:31:37PM *  5 points [-]

Having read Feeling Good, I have a different view on emotions than those posed thus far in the comments.

Anger might be a valid response to the little goblin tying your shoes together, but the rational person asks, "Does it benefit me or hurt me to feel anger?" Anger is generally a maladaptive response in today's environment of tremendous punishments for physical violence, and that's beside the fact that it is an extremely unpleasant feeling.

Instrumental rationality, remember? If it prevents you from fulfilling your goals to feel x, then x is unwarranted.

In Eliezer's case, "It benefits me to feel sad because my brother died," is uncertain. Maybe it motivates him to work really hard at creating Friendly AI and is thus warranted, but the impression I get is that he was already doing that.

I almost hope he doesn't see this comment, but I'd like to see his response. I have a vague feeling of something crucial I overlooked.

Edit: It seems Amanojack expressed this sentiment earlier, and I didn't really need to post this. Oops.

In response to comment by Grognor on Feeling Rational
Comment author: hannahelisabeth 13 November 2012 10:18:19PM -1 points [-]

It does benefit you to feel sad because your brother died, though not exactly directly. The reason you feel sad is because you were attached to him. You would not feel sad if he were a random, namless (to you) stranger. Having that attachment is beneficial, even if the consequent emotion is not. But the two are inextricably tied together, and the prospect of sadness at the loss is part of what keeps you wanting to look after each other.

The question of rationality in emotions is better considered in the framework of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy. An emtion is irrational if it results from an irrational belief, one that is dogmatic, rigid, inflexible. When you recognize this and replace the irrational belief with the rational one, the irrational emotion tends to be replaced by a rational one.

In the example of the goblin, the anger is not a direct result of the goblin tying your shoes together, but of your beliefs about the goblin tying your shoes together. Common anger-inciting beliefs are "he shouldn't have done the" or "I can't stand that he did that." But why shouldn't he have done that? Is there some law stating goblins can't tie shoes together that was violated? Can you not stand that? Will you expire on the spot if that happens? No, what you really ought to realize is that "it's unfortunate and inconvenient that the goblin tied my shoes together." And when you think that thought, the anger typically turns into mild irritation or disappointment.

In the case of losing a brother, being sad and mourning is a normal, natural, and healthy response. If you went around thinking "I can't live without him" or "I can't stand that he died" you're going to upset yourself irrationally and likely end up unduly depressed. If you replace those thoughts with "It's very sad that my brother died, but I can tolerate it and life will still go on" you will likely be sad and mournful, but then move on with your life as most people do when they lose loved ones.

In response to comment by DSimon on Feeling Rational
Comment author: amya1989 02 October 2011 02:51:17PM 0 points [-]

I'm considering this quote, and also wondering how it would be possible, as most people hold the belief that you can't feel anything that your heart doesn't want to feel. Is it irrational to 'listen to ones heart'? Can you really change your thinking, motivate yourself to change your thoughts and thus change your feelings?

In response to comment by amya1989 on Feeling Rational
Comment author: hannahelisabeth 13 November 2012 08:42:43PM 2 points [-]

Yes. This is called Rational Emotive Behavior Theory, and it was developed by Albert Ellis.

Comment author: Peterdjones 12 November 2012 10:29:18AM 0 points [-]

I don't think that would mislead most people, since most people can handle context and don't expect ordinary English phraseology to conform to logical rigour.

Comment author: hannahelisabeth 13 November 2012 03:52:23PM 0 points [-]

My point was that it's misleading to those trying to interpet it directly into a logical statement, which is what Eliezer seemed to be trying to do. I'm sure there are lots of people who could read that sentiment and understand the meaning behind it (or at least a meaning; some people interpret it differently than others). It's certainly possible to comprehend (obviously, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to explain it), but the meaning is nevertheless in an ambiguous form, and it did confuse at least some people.

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