Comment author: LauraABJ 30 December 2009 12:03:34AM 1 point [-]

I had hoped that by asking him to write clearly, he would need to have a point to make clear. You are probably right that this is not the case.

Comment author: happyseaurchin 30 December 2009 10:30:12PM 2 points [-]

Thank you, LauraABJ. My language is not precise enough to match the level of eg Eliezer. My experience has mostly been with children. My experience justifies a rather extreme position: objectification of conscious experience, especially in the form of writing, is inherently misleading if our objective is to comprehend the human condition. That is, although I respect linguistic control, there are strict limits that prevent words from carrying the levels of comprehension we are seeking. Hence, the adoption of maths. I was so enthused by the articles here, I got carried away...

Thank you, Eliezer; in the balance between writing and thinking, my writing is worse. I do apologise, but in the same way I have been premature with my commentary to the LW site, you may have been premature with your judgement of my thinking. I have thought and rethought my words here, and the best I can come up with is this. This community, and especially you, have had the time to explore your ideas and develop a system of thinking. This is clearly very powerful, and it attracts bright minds (even as non-verbal as my own). I have also developed a system of thinking, and it mostly relies on dynamics that are not based entirely on the mechanics of words -- hence my disadvantage here. There is an overlap, thankfully: mathematics. With further reading into the application of bayes' theorem on this site, I hope to contribute something useful, in a manner acceptable, such that our goals are brought closer.

Comment author: anonym 29 December 2009 11:31:43PM 2 points [-]

Regarding 1, automating could be done so that anybody whose net karma is below a certain negative threshold (e.g., -5/-10/-20) gets their account suspended for 1 month, and next time they visit the site, there is a notification that the account was suspended and a link to a page that spells out community netiquette and norms that are expected to be adhered to. After the account is unsuspended, the individual may post again, and if they drop another 5/10/20 points in karma, the account is permanently disabled and/or deleted.

This seems more likely to result in people taking the feedback constructively and staying around as readers who may one day be able to contribute positively, as well as avoiding much of the drama that sometimes results in these kinds of situations, though I'm glad that happyseaurchin took the advice constructively in this case.

Regarding 2, we definitely do need a prominent section in the About page (and probably as part of the sign-up process) that spells out posting standards and norms that happyseaurchin violated.

P.S. I'm one of those who voted you down repeatedly in the hope that you would think about why you were being consistently downvoted and adjust your behavior accordingly, but I hope you stay around as a reader, starting with the really old material and the wiki (also, work on your grammar/writing skills). At some point, you may sign up again and participate productively.

Comment author: happyseaurchin 30 December 2009 08:56:56PM 1 point [-]

Thank you, anonym. I did try to modify my posts and style, the last attempts being a little too bold. I have written a reasonable amount, and my comprehension of the human condition departs quite considerably from accepted norms. I liked the name of the site, and appreciated the attempts made in posts to bring more accuracy to the subject matter. I am happy with my ability to communicate, at least in person, and hope one day I may, as you say, participate productively. Thank you for your consideration of my parting suggestion. Be well!

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 29 December 2009 09:26:03PM -3 points [-]

There's not really any polite way to say this, but when your recent comments all get downvoted, it means you need to stop posting here. Since it's not fair to expect commenters to exercise constant vigilance on people who can't take a hint, further comments from you will be deleted. G'bye.

Comment author: happyseaurchin 29 December 2009 10:20:30PM *  13 points [-]

I am sorry to hear that. I am not enough of an academic to adopt the nomenclature accurately enough. I do apologise.

Since you are to delete this post, may I suggest

  1. Automate the process so that if a comment receives eg -2 points, it is deleted. This may avoid the uncomfortable feelings I had upon reading your comment, as well as the feelings you must have had in writing it.

  2. You make posting etiquette a little clearer in the ABOUT section.

Although I am disheartened that my enthusiasm got the better of me in that I contributed before knowing the lay of the land, I will still look forward to reading posts. Perhaps one day I shall be able to contribute something useful. Be well.

In response to comment by byrnema on Reductionism
Comment author: xrchz 28 October 2009 09:26:52PM 0 points [-]

Even if there is only one type of thing 'x', our reality (which is, above all, dynamic) seems to require a relationship and interaction between 'x' and ' ~x'. I'd say, logically, reality needs at least two kinds of things.

Logic can only compel models.

You seem to be saying "Let x denote the universe. ~x is then a valid term. So ~x must denote something that isn't x, thus there are two things!" There are surface problems with this such as that x may not be of type boolean, and that you're just assuming every term denotes something. But the important problem is simpler: we can use logic to deduce things about our models, but logic doesn't touch reality itself (apart from the part of reality that is us).

What do you mean by "reality is dynamic"? Have you read Timeless Physics?

In response to comment by xrchz on Reductionism
Comment author: happyseaurchin 29 December 2009 10:04:57PM 0 points [-]

Well said. I use the term "actuality" to refer to undifferentiated universe. We happen to be part of this, like animals and plants etc, and it is our quality of mind that differentiates, imagines, is the source of not (as in ~x), for which I use the term "reality". This tends to bring some clarification when talking about subtle aspects of existence.

Comment author: happyseaurchin 29 December 2009 09:40:54PM -3 points [-]

Amusing conceptual backdrop. A more obvious explanation to the false projection of sexiness inherently in women, is that the expected audience respond to representations of sexiness associated with women which they experience directly. But you know this... I think the trick in reading these articles is outlining how you think about things, and perhaps outlining a set of thinking principles such that I can experience.

Comment author: happyseaurchin 29 December 2009 09:27:14PM -1 points [-]

I came up with a similar concept, "insider understanding", and this is the most articulate and precise example of it I have seen. Thanks. I need to know a little more about naive bayes classifications, but I like the two levels of category and qualia wrt network 2, and the potential residence of the cognitive mistake.

Comment author: MichaelVassar 29 December 2009 06:20:24PM 10 points [-]

Mother Teresa had lots of status as a consequence of successful and effective self-promotion, which is precisely why she came to mind as an example of a non-status seeking person rather than failing to come to mind becaus you had never heard of her.

Comment author: happyseaurchin 29 December 2009 09:09:27PM 0 points [-]

Does this mean that every well-known person that impinges upon my/your reality must have been exercising self-promotion? Given the second-order subtlety of Yvain's original post, namely "seeking a state of affairs that allows them to believe they have status", the emphasis seems to be on creating conditions that enable a status-engagement with others. That is, it is not self-orientated but condition-enabling. (But I may be departing from Yvain's distinctions and model here. I might then also flag the word "seeking".)

Comment author: Yvain 29 December 2009 06:51:46PM 2 points [-]

Mother Teresa isn't hard to explain on this model. She could be gaining normal status covertly, like Michael Vassar says. She could be feeling good about herself and her status because she thinks that her altruism makes her a better person than others. Or she could feel good about herself and her status because she's serving God, which makes her a better person than others.

Comment author: happyseaurchin 29 December 2009 08:58:29PM -2 points [-]

hmmm... this seems shallow... i still look forward to the development of your model :)

Comment author: happyseaurchin 29 December 2009 03:42:50PM -2 points [-]

I prefer to abstract the dynamic to "oppositional state" rather than personify into a "contrarian". That is, a contrarian is someone who places themselves in an oppositional state to another.

Comment author: happyseaurchin 29 December 2009 03:22:08PM -4 points [-]

i came to this dormant thread from the future: http://lesswrong.com/lw/1k4/the_contrarian_status_catch22/1ckj.

Seems to me there is a mismapping of multiple worlds wrt quantum physics and the multiple worlds we create subjectively. I personally steer clear of physics and concern myself more with the subjective realities we create. This seems to me to be more congruent with the material that eliezer presents here, ie wrt logic and occam's razor, and what he presents in the article linked above, ie wrt contrarian dynamics and feelings of satisfaction et al.

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