Comment author: Wei_Dai 11 May 2010 06:14:29AM 7 points [-]

We think that we know a little bit about how to raise intelligence. Just turn down the suppression of early CNS growth. If you do that in one way the eyeball grows too big and you are nearsighted, which is highly correlated with intelligence.

That's interesting. I found a 2006 paper which argued that a genetic mutation is responsible for myopia, and that it also increases intelligence, but the specific gene and mechanism involved were apparently still unknown at that time. Has there been some more recent research results on this topic?

Comment author: harpend 12 May 2010 05:57:06PM 4 points [-]

There is apparently a research group in China that has some solid results but I have not seen them and do not know if they are out yet.

HCH

Comment author: PhilGoetz 11 May 2010 10:42:04PM *  0 points [-]

I think one should find that IQ is more highly correlated with myopia than academic achievement

More correlated than academic achievement is correlated with IQ, or with myopia?

Your comment is a very good point. But IQ may be more-closely correlated with academic achievement than academic achievement is with reading books; so this comparison might not help. (And you want to talk about the variance in X accounted for by Y but not by Z, rather than place a bet on whether Y or Z has a higher correlation with X.)

Comment author: harpend 12 May 2010 05:55:55PM 3 points [-]

Yes, of course. But remember that in science we are not in the business of "accepting" one thing of another. That is the domain of religion and politics. The only thing that matters is finding good hypotheses and testing them.

HCH

Comment author: AnnaSalamon 11 May 2010 12:05:22AM *  10 points [-]

I haven't read your book yet, so forgive me if you discuss this there. But I’ve been wondering:

Simple traits (such as an organism's height) are probably relatively easy to alter via genetic mutations, without needing to combine many different genes chosen from huge populations. So, e.g., dog breeding altered dogs’ size relatively easily.

Complex adaptations aren’t nearly so easy to come by.

If intelligence is a conceptually simple thing, there might be simple mutations that create “more intelligence” -- it might be possible to make smarter people/mice/etc. by tuning a setting on an adaptation we already have. (E.g., “make more brain cells”).

If intelligence is instead something that requires many information-theoretic bits to specify, e.g. because “intelligence” is a matter of fit between an organism’s biases and the details of its environment, it shouldn’t be easy to create much more intelligence from a single mutation. (Just as if the target was a long arbitrary string in binary, and the genetic code specified that string digit by digit, simple mutations would increase fit by at most one digit.)

From the manner in which modern human intelligence evolved, what’s your guess at how simple human (or animal) intelligence is?

Comment author: harpend 12 May 2010 05:50:24PM 6 points [-]

It must be simple in some way since it is so heritable. People with IQs of 90 and IQs of 140 both prosper and do fine. although there are lots of statistical differences between two such groups.

Other other hand if we take a trait like "propensity to learn language in childhood" this seems to me to be relatively invariable and fixed and so probably very complex.

Certainly one could breed for IQ and raise the population mean a lot. But what would we be doing to our children? People with 140 IQ seem to do all right but I would worry a lot about the kind of life a kid with an IQ of 220 would have.

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 11 May 2010 03:41:24AM *  4 points [-]

I thought RichardKennaway's previous comment was interesting, and would appreciate hearing your comments on it. Commenting on the hypothesis that life under the rule of others may have selected for submissiveness, he wrote:

On the other hand, submissiveness is surely selected against in rulers, who as noted in the posting leave more descendants than proles. So perhaps in a society in which the strong rule and the weak submit there is some evolutionarily stable distribution along a submissive/aggressive spectrum, rather than favouring one or the other?

Comment author: harpend 12 May 2010 05:42:35PM 10 points [-]

My feeling is that the dichotomy between societies where males are threatening and violent and societies where males are submissive and not threats to each other is the most interesting social dichotomy we have. In some societies where males are threats there is a clear alternative niche like the Berdache on the Great Plains. In urban ghettos with drug dealers and street corner males there is a significant set of males who hold down jobs and, often, bring the proceeds to support their matrifocal families. How much such males reproduce is not clear. A wonderful description of this, with a zany analysis, is (Sharff, J. W. (1981). Free enterprise and the ghetto family. Psychology Today, 15, 41-8.)

There may well be stable distributions lurking in the social system but they are likely different everywhere: that for Bushmen would be quite different from that for Mundurucu.

Rulers do not always leave more descendants than proles. I highly recommend Gregory Clark's "Farewell to Alms", in which he shows that the medieval ruling class in Britain essentially all killed each other and have no descendants today. On the other end peasants and laborers did not reproduce themselves, so almost everyone in the UK today is descended from the medieval gentry, prosperous merchants, and so on.

Comment author: Roko 11 May 2010 11:20:19AM *  9 points [-]

Do you have an overall view on the feasibility and timeline for genetic engineering of human intelligence?

For example, at what odds would you bet that we will have the ability to create hundreds of IQ +6 sigma super-geniuses by 2020 (for a reasonable cost, e.g. total project cost <$1bn)? 2030? 2040? 2050? 2075?

This is quite relevant for people interested in the singularity, because if it is highly feasible (and there are some who think it is), then it could provide a route to singularity that is independent of software AI progress, thereby forcing a rational observer to include an additional factor in favor of extreme scientific progress in the 21st century.

Comment author: harpend 12 May 2010 04:58:53PM 8 points [-]

I have heard discussion about the singularity on the web but I have never had any idea at all what it is, so I can't say much about that.

I do not think there is much prospect for dramatic IQ elevation without producing somewhat damaged people. We talk a lot in our book about the ever-present deleterious consequences of the strong selection that follows any environmental change. Have a look for example at the whippet homozygous for a dinged version of myostatin. Even a magic pill is likely to do the same thing. OTOH scientists don't have a very good track record at predicting the future. Now, I am going to hop into my flying car and go to the office -:)

HCH

Comment author: CronoDAS 12 May 2010 04:09:06AM 8 points [-]

What are your thoughts on the Flynn effect?

Comment author: harpend 12 May 2010 04:46:30PM 7 points [-]

It is an interesting puzzle. This was a secular rise in cognitive test scores well documented in a number of countries during the 20th century. It has stopped and even reversed in the last few decades. There seem to be several pausible ideas out there

One is that social changes have had the effect of "training" people for cognitive tests: more magazines, radio, chatter everywhere, advertising, etc. Hard idea to test. I do fieldwork in Southern Africa. Forty years ago there were no radios in the backcountry, no books, no magazines. Today radio, newspapers, magazines are everywhere. I expect that this changes people a lot but I have no evidence.

Flynn himself thinks nutrition got better but the data are not clear about that. I would favor as an explanation vaccination and antibiotics. Infectious disease and the inflammation associated with it does seem to damage people (Caleb Finch, Eileen Crimmins, others). We have cut the intensity of childhood insults way down everywhere.

My two cents........

Comment author: Kaj_Sotala 11 May 2010 01:37:54AM 4 points [-]

IIRC, herding is explicitly mentioned in the book as a behavior that wolves do and which has been strengthened by selection in some dog races.

Comment author: harpend 11 May 2010 03:51:24AM 4 points [-]

Right, wolves pack-hunt which involves pretty complex management of prey herds including something like a "theory of prey mind" to predict what the prey will do.

There is a lot known about cape dog hunting because they are in fairly open country and can be observed. Not only do they predict where the prey herd will go, they coordinate and signal to each other with postures during the chase. It is absolutely beautiful to watch, like stop-action ballet.

HCH

Comment author: AnnaSalamon 11 May 2010 12:05:22AM *  10 points [-]

I haven't read your book yet, so forgive me if you discuss this there. But I’ve been wondering:

Simple traits (such as an organism's height) are probably relatively easy to alter via genetic mutations, without needing to combine many different genes chosen from huge populations. So, e.g., dog breeding altered dogs’ size relatively easily.

Complex adaptations aren’t nearly so easy to come by.

If intelligence is a conceptually simple thing, there might be simple mutations that create “more intelligence” -- it might be possible to make smarter people/mice/etc. by tuning a setting on an adaptation we already have. (E.g., “make more brain cells”).

If intelligence is instead something that requires many information-theoretic bits to specify, e.g. because “intelligence” is a matter of fit between an organism’s biases and the details of its environment, it shouldn’t be easy to create much more intelligence from a single mutation. (Just as if the target was a long arbitrary string in binary, and the genetic code specified that string digit by digit, simple mutations would increase fit by at most one digit.)

From the manner in which modern human intelligence evolved, what’s your guess at how simple human (or animal) intelligence is?

Comment author: harpend 11 May 2010 03:46:26AM 13 points [-]

You are even meaner than Shulman. We don't know how human intelligence evolved and we need to know it in order to answer your question I think. This is where evolutionary psychology and differential psychology (Am I using that term right?) must come together to work this out.

We think that we know a little bit about how to raise intelligence. Just turn down the suppression of early CNS growth. If you do that in one way the eyeball grows too big and you are nearsighted, which is highly correlated with intelligence. BRCA1 is another early CNS growth suppressor, and we speculate in the book that a mildly broken BRCA1 is an IQ booster even though it gives you cancer later. BTW Greg tells me that there a high correlation between IQ and the risk of brain cancer, perhaps because of the same mechanism.

But these ways of boosting IQ are Red Green engineering. (Red Green is a popular North American comedy on television. The hero is a do-it-yourselfer who does everything shoddily.)

On the other hand IQ seems to behave like a textbook quantitative trait and it ought to respond rapidly to selection. We suggest that it did among Ashkenazi Jews and probably Parsis. IQ does not seem to have a downside in the general population, e.g. it is positively correlated with physical attractiveness, health, lifespan, and so on. Do we get insight into the costs of high IQ by looking at Ashkenazi Jews? Do they have overall higher rates of mental quirks? Cancer? I don't know.

HCH

Comment author: CarlShulman 11 May 2010 12:14:24AM 8 points [-]

If a trait is being selected for, the alleles with large positive effects will compound with a faster growth rate than those with small effects (even if there are initially many more small-effect alleles) and tend to account for a large portion of the heritability of that trait (at least until they have almost swept the population).

You suggest that psychological traits such as personality and cognition have been subject to recent positive selection, so why haven't GWAS (or targeted investigations, e.g. microcephalin) found much in the way of common large effect alleles for psychological traits? What are your best guesses on the genetic architectures of personality and cognition?

Comment author: harpend 11 May 2010 03:35:18AM 11 points [-]

Yikes! This is worse than my PhD orals.

There have been some (tentatively) identified like the 7-repeat version of the D4 dopamine receptor, the serotonin transporter, and others that Greg will be able to dredge up from his memory.

We may have found others but not identified them. Imagine that it would be highly beneficial to have a little bit less of substance s. If so then a mutation that broke the gene producing s would be favored a lot and would sweep until people with two copies of broken s started being born. How likely is it now that two broken copies of s will still work? A lot of the sweeps identified from SNP scans seem to have stalled out at intermediate frequencies (as opposed to going to fixation) suggesting that heterozygote advantage is widespread.

If so the genome wide association studies ought to find them, and they find a lot, many of the findings are not replicable. So after all the above I have no coherent answer to your question!

Comment author: CarlShulman 11 May 2010 12:22:50AM *  5 points [-]

The mathematical models for an acceleration of human evolution seem like they could have been developed earlier. Would more researchers, or more 'maverick' researchers have much advanced progress in the field? Or would an increased stock of mathematical analysis have simply sat around unused until the advent of the new genomics tools and their ability to measure selection?

Comment author: harpend 11 May 2010 03:25:51AM 13 points [-]

That is a big and interesting question. I do not think that evolutionary biology needed more math at all: they would have done better with less I think. The only math needed (so far) in thinking about acceleration is the result that the fixation probability of a new mutant is 1/2N if it is neutral and 2s if it has selective advantage s. The other important equation is that the change in a quantitative trait is the product of the heritability and the selective differential (the difference between the mean of the population and the mean of parents).

The history is that there was a ruckus in the 1960s between the selectionists and the new sect of neutralism, and neutralism more or less won. Selectionists persisted but that literature has a focus on bacteria in chemostats, plants, yeast, and such. Neutralism answered lots of questions and is associated with some lovely math, but as we took it up we (many of us) lost sight of real evolutionary issues.

Milford Wolpoff, in a review of our book in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology points out that his student Dave Frayer collected a lot of data on changes in European skull size and shape that implied very rapid evolution. In other words we "knew it all along" but never paid attention. In fact Cochran and I "knew" it but never put it together with the new findings from SNP chips. John Hawks did, right away.

So fashion rules and we it is difficult to get away from it I suppose.

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