In response to Tonic Judo
Comment author: helldalgo 05 April 2016 02:00:25PM *  8 points [-]

I've had very similar conversations while working with developmentally delayed children. They required more leading; the inferential gaps between adults and children are larger than between two adults. Usually.

One boy in particular was autistic, OCD, and prone to rapid escalation of anxieties. At one point, while working on a set of subtraction problems, he became positive that his mother would be furious if he didn't finish them by the time she got home. Subtraction was already a difficult concept for him, and the anxiety did not help his ability to problem-solve. The anxiety was also relatively baseless: his mother was a very patient woman who rarely got angry at him, and never over homework.

He started sobbing, so I asked, "What is your brain saying right now?" This vocabulary matched his own narrative about his emotional problems ("My brain is telling me to do X").

He replied, through tears, "It's saying my mom will be so mad if I can't finish my homework!" This resembles the black-box concept that your friend had about inconsiderate thieves.

"What sort of things does your mom usually get mad about?"

"Like when I hit my sister or break things when I'm mad!"

"Does she get mad when you're trying hard to solve a problem?"

"...No."

"Does she get mad when your brain is making you sad or scared about a problem?"

"...No. But if I don't finish she will kill me!"

"Oh, has she ever done that before?" At this point I was smiling, and he had stopped sobbing quite so hard.

"...Almost!"

I reached over and poked his arm. "Looks like you're still alive! Unless ghosts have skin? Do ghosts have skin?" He giggled at this, and then we were able to resolve the problem.

It's a pretty neat little algorithm for handling excessive distress:

  1. Validate the distressed person using their own narrative about the problem.

  2. Put the emotions into reality ("Do you really think that that's what's going on in their heads? 'I'm going to be inconsiderate now.'?"). Vague anxieties are powerful anxieties; you need to take them all the way to their implications to decide if it's worth being anxious. Likewise, vague anger isn't anger that can do anything; if it's useless, it should go away, and if it's useful, it should be goal-oriented.

  3. Diffuse with humor, if you know the person well enough to do it kindly.

This is uncomfortably close to a more abusive algorithm that goes:

  1. Semi-validate, with your own narrative about their problem.

  2. Pin their emotions down by asking leading questions that will make them feel ridiculous for having them.

  3. Be dismissive about it through humor so they feel like they can't continue having those emotions in your presence.

Algorithm 1 is in the context of mutual trust, and respect for the other person's emotional state. Algorithm 2 is just a tricky way to get distressed people to shut up, and I am very opposed to its use.

Comment author: Viliam 27 March 2016 11:09:16AM 16 points [-]

I actually did the thing with Anki, three languages at the same time, and it failed just like you described.

I suspect that it was an instance of a more general harmful pattern in my life, how I unconsciously turn my successes into future punishments. A pattern that I learned at childhood, and it's difficult to overcome, because at the moment it feels like a virtue.

Here is the pattern: I notice myself doing something right, and instead of just enjoying the situation and rewarding myself mentally, I feel the impulse to increase the burden until I break, which then provides me an opportunity to punish myself mentally (feel disappointed with myself). Which means that in long term, I am punishing myself for doing things right.

At the moment it feels like the right thing to do: I have finally found something that "works" for me; why not use it more? Just think about all the opportunities!

But the problem is that things don't scale linearly. I have a limited amount of time / energy / attention / whatever, and maybe the method already consumes as much of some resource as is sustainable. Another problem is that there is a difference between approaching a "#1 problem" and "yet another thing that should be done"; the former motivates to creatively expore solutions, the latter just creates an ugh-field around anything you use to push yourself.

Sometimes it is necessary to accept that there are many things I would want to do, but maybe at the moment I only have enough resources to do one of them properly. And I should look at the bright side and be happy that it is one thing instead of zero.

With the examples from article, in (1) I would recommend staying with French, and perhaps when the Anki workload is smaller, do something else in the remaining time, such as read a book or watch a movie in French. Switch from learning to using, without increasing time. Until it becomes a part of life (e.g. Bob would start regularly reading some French web pages) so it doesn't require conscious maintenance. If he isn't equally passionate about German, maybe he shouldn't learn it at all; maybe he just doesn't have enough time and energy for all that. In (2), Sally could use a weekend or take a day of vacation to look for the new job.

Comment author: helldalgo 27 March 2016 09:37:09PM 0 points [-]

Seconding Viliam here. This is exactly what I've done multiple times with different productivity systems.

Comment author: Huluk 26 March 2016 12:55:37AM *  26 points [-]

[Survey Taken Thread]

By ancient tradition, if you take the survey you may comment saying you have done so here, and people will upvote you and you will get karma.

Let's make these comments a reply to this post. That way we continue the tradition, but keep the discussion a bit cleaner.

Comment author: helldalgo 27 March 2016 04:30:40AM 38 points [-]

Survey taken.

Comment author: Viliam 17 February 2016 08:49:11AM *  2 points [-]

It's another to frame the issue as a situation entirely perpetuated by women who are resisting for trivial reasons. That casts women as malicious, when that's not a universal or common case.

I agree that refusing sex is not malicious. However, these things could be interpreted as malicious -- slut shaming, anti prostitution, anti pornography. A lot of that comes from women.

If a woman refuses to have a sex with a "sexually starved man", that's perfectly okay. It's just not okay if she also goes on a political crusade trying to prevent him from getting sex or some sex-substitute by other means. For example if she writes an article about the danger of sexbots -- that I would classify as malicious. It's no longer "I don't want to be involved in solving this person's problem", but it's "I prefer that person to suffer". Yet this hostile behavior is often accepted in our society, and often encouraged.

Comment author: helldalgo 17 February 2016 01:37:20PM *  1 point [-]

Yes, thank you. I agree with all of that.

If there are means by which a sex-starved person can get sex, that don't infringe on anyone's agency...and that means is still maligned? I think there's a strong case for its critics being malicious (or at best, severely misguided).

Comment author: Elo 16 February 2016 03:53:07PM 0 points [-]

I knew before, I don't really see the font face any more very much because it's so everywhere...

Comment author: helldalgo 16 February 2016 04:44:37PM 0 points [-]

Shh don't take this away from me.

Comment author: Clarity 15 February 2016 03:42:11AM *  14 points [-]

Clarity's bitching and moaning containment comment

No other top level comment by Clarity will be made in this Open Thread will be made because a considerable portion of LW voters don't give a shit

1. Windows 7 phones are problematic

There is currently no way to remove the auto-fill terms you have accumulated over time asides from hard reseting the phone.

-Windows 7 phone search history can't be deleted...

Seriously, Microsoft? People could find I eschew porn to instead listen to songs that remix in or mashup sounds from porn while going about my daily activities.

2. Can your genes exempt you from an altruistic imperative to donate your organs?

Do our SNP's indicate any exceptions to the duty to donate one's organs? rs17319721(A)'s and Rs429... are associated with kidney related issues. It doesn't appear any others are known to. The implications are unclear.

3. El Chapo's getting desperate.

What would you do in his situation? How does me manage to get to cartel to do his bidding when he's on the run when they could usurp him instead? I assume that other high up Sinoloa cartel people just appreciate his intelligence in planning their operations. And, that incidental helpers opportunistically solicit his favour, bribes and fear his influence without actively making them because of his reputation. Maybe there are some interesting mechanisms in there too, like people he's earmarked as having to die if he is ever caught, or doesn't escape by a certain time, or dies*, like a kind of prediction market. I would imagine such criminals have sophisticated prediction market-esque trustless systems to protect them. I mean, I wouldn't otherwise count on the loyalty or trustworthiness of other criminals...I mean, it would be a lot harder to replicate his actions in more Western countries because of greater structural integrity of social institutions and norms, but I can't help but be in awe of the guy's intelligence and ruthless pursuit of his ends and means.

4. Interesting takeaways from Tim Ferriss’s productivity interview of a former four star US special forces and joint coalition forces general

  • High peer ratings have the highest predictive validity for top-level military leadership appointments and advancement

  • After ww2 they asked combat organisations what was most useful from their training and people said: distance running and pack marches (explained as: because it pushed them) and live fire exercises (he adds, dealing with uncertainty too but that wasn't found from the ww2 survey). I noted that this was said around 48 mins 40 seconds in.

  • watch 3 people - someone senior who you admire, a peer who is doing what you are doing better than you and someone junior who is doing the job you were doing better than you did

5. My sister is such c-word

I wish there were psychologist/therapist gift vouchers for frenemies or people you have to stay in contact with for a long time due to work or familial obligation...

6. Karma pattern analysis

a graph of my karma: Increasingly volatility and controversiality (high scores and low scores). Seems to be alternating clusters of high and low karma. Is that attributable to global variation in sentiment of lesswrong voters or to temporal variation in the karma attractiveness of my posts?

7. Why is psychiatry so weird?

  • What accounts for the discrepancy between reports of suffering by the mentally and neurologically ill, and the sympathy afforded to them? Do estimates for disability or quality of life by mental health patients systematically deviate from observer or physiologically revealed estimates? How about addicts or pain patients?

  • Smoking and schizphrenia confounded by weight control beliefs? If so sz without antipsychotic would smoke less

8. How am I supposed to follow the law if I don't know what the law is?

The AI control problem is a principal-agent problem, just like theattorney problem. Thoughts on radically simplifying the law to re-emphasise personal responsibility, promote leadership against paralysis and law anxiety?

9. How’s democratic information asymmetry working out?

Not too bad.

Ballot papers present a handful of names, a handful of labels and voting process ensues. Why aren’t there more random incompetents elected to public office? This is not to say that they aren’t there, but this system of appearingly intense information asymmetry seems to work out okay.

To be an independent candidate requires lots of voters to nominate you and therefore substantive mass (even if minority(appeal), to be a party candidate requires winning an internal preselection election (by people who tend to vote for people they have existing, long standing elections with) and to win council generally requires a racially appropriate name for the area’s demographic who are like to know you.

This screening process may separate the wheat from the chaff early-on.

10. A movie about an internet drug dealer from da hood gives a lesson in enthusiastic consent

"I'm bored as fuck, how about we play? Lets play mother may I. Do you remember how to play that?... May I take off my clothes?... May I walk over to you?... May I touch you?"

-Female character from Dope (2016 the movie)

I've omitted the guys response since they were more or less 'yes'.

What great, playful elicitation of enthusiastic consent without an awkward, forward question!

11. Fallacy charlatans

Brendan Moynihan, who the author of the Black Swan said wasn't a charlattan unlike most finance book authors, summarises market participation fallacies as internalising what should be external events here onwards. His thesis perplexis me. It's doesn't seem wrong, it seems wronger than wronger, but his case seems very compelling. I smell some darks arts. I wonder if the Black Swan author spoke too soon...

12. 80K for LMIC's

I wrote a haiku:

Teaching to earn

To earn to give

80,000 Hours 2020

Bridging 80,000 Hours with developing world education will kill 3 birds with one stone: earning to give, developing world education and the problem of bridging between schooling and economic opportunity.

13. EA unicode symbol?

How about 'æ'?

14. Is pedo advocacy an undervalued, neglected social cause?

My heart continues to bleed for virtuous pedophiles and the ostracisation that probably encourages surrepticious, unhealthy sexual and romantic relationships between adults and children. I hope more people will pledge public support for groups trying to fight to treat pedos like people. There seem to be advocacy organisations that are above board and I wouldn't be suprised if an increasingly sex positive future society crowns pedo advocates of today with the glory affored to early LGBTI campaigners. Maybe they'll call them LGBTIP one day. I feel ashamed that I should have to disclaim that I am not at all attracted to children (and barely have a sex drive nowadays in general) in order to give extra credibility to this post. I'm also ashamed that when I'm in IRL company I'm given to joining in the group emotion and condemning pedos when the topic comes up, but at least I'm willing to talk about it more uh 'rationally' here.

15. Siblings of low-functioning autistics can have a lot of carer responsibilities. Do they deserve the baggage of carrier stigma too?

Based on the Wikipedia article on the heritability of autism I have concluded that if you're dating someone who has a sibling that is autistic, other than caring for their sibling you should consider having kids early if you intend to, not having kids if the mother has a psychiatric illness but otherwise no worrying too much about passing on the autism. The rate of autism in the general population is 1.47 percent. Prevalence of autism in siblings of autistic children was found to be 1.76% in 2005 Danish study looked at "data from the Danish Psychiatric Central Register and the Danish Civil Registration System.

The risk was twice as high if the mother had been diagnosed with a psychiatric disorder. The study also found that "the risk of autism was associated with increasing degree of urbanisation of the child's place of birth and with increasing paternal, but not maternal, age.

However, less authoritative (yahoo answers) sources suggests that the specific etyiology of the autism may affect the chance of inheritence. Allegedly if the autistic family carries fragile X then the chance of inheritence is like 10 percent plus or something. They recommended talking to a genetic counsellor so I reckon the best steps are to do that, or do more thorough research than I've done here about where autism has occured in your mate's family!

Comment author: helldalgo 16 February 2016 01:40:26PM 1 point [-]

Re: number 6. My impression is that the "karma attractiveness" of your posts is pretty variable. I'll give it some more thought and see if I can nail down any specific reasons for that impression.

Re: number 5. If you'd like to commiserate about unpleasant family members, let me know. :P I have them in spades.

Comment author: JosephRogero 16 February 2016 12:40:24AM 0 points [-]

Gladly! Of course, if you're interested, you are also welcome to attend this one.

Comment author: helldalgo 16 February 2016 01:29:26PM 0 points [-]

It'd be quite a drive, I'm in Idaho, but I'll keep that in mind next time I'm in Houston.

Comment author: Brillyant 15 February 2016 03:16:48PM 0 points [-]

How would a Donald Trump presidency effect the probability we achieve friendly AI before Clippy arrives?

Also, it appears OP used Comic Sans. Hm.

Comment author: helldalgo 15 February 2016 06:59:34PM *  1 point [-]

The Comic Sans thing might be my fault...I may have alerted Elo to widespread distaste for the font.

Comment author: JosephRogero 15 February 2016 02:06:33AM 8 points [-]

Hello from Houston, Texas! I've been following LessWrong for several years now, slowly working my way through the Sequences. I'm an aspiring fantasy/sci-fi writer, martial artist, and outdoorsman and I am overjoyed to be a part of the LW community. It's hard for me to say exactly when I first 'clicked' on rationality, but the Tsuyoku Naritai post certainly struck a chord for me.

A few months ago, I attended a LessWrong meetup in Austin. I enjoyed the meetup immensely, not least because it also happened to be a Petrov Day celebration. I'd like to attend LW meetups more frequently, but I live in Spring (north Houston) and the Austin meetup is a 3+ hour drive for me.

So, I've decided to start a Houston meetup group. According to some (admittedly old) statistics, the number of visitors to LessWrong from the Houston area is over 9000, and I think this is more than enough to create an enjoyable meetup group.

Our first meetup will be Saturday, February 20 at the Black Walnut Cafe in the Woodlands, TX. It will start at 1:00PM and go until 4:00PM (or later, if enough people show up and are interested in staying).

If you're interested, please reply below so I know who to expect!

Comment author: helldalgo 15 February 2016 03:17:01PM 1 point [-]

Hi, and welcome!

I'm hoping to start a Meetup group sometime this spring or summer. If you're amenable to it, I may bug you afterwards and see how your meetup went.

Comment author: OrphanWilde 08 February 2016 08:53:55PM 8 points [-]

Which is why the anti-politics rule exists, I think. Because most people can't disengage enough. The downvotes are perfectly fair, otherwise any authentic-enough political crying fit would be a heckler's veto on the anti-politics rule, which would just become politics by another name as people tried to decide what qualified as authentic.

But people should view stuff like this as... exercises in recognizing and overcoming their biases. Not excuses to attack wrongthought.

Comment author: helldalgo 08 February 2016 08:58:06PM 4 points [-]

You make good points. I'm not going to redact, because I don't think I'm incorrect, but I'm tapping out of this thread.

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