Comment author: gwillen 10 March 2010 10:29:36PM 0 points [-]

As an interesting anecdote, I was schooled in a completely traditional fashion, and yet I never really learned to finish either. I did learn to learn, but I did it through a combination of schooling and self-teaching. But all the self-teaching was in addition to a completely standard course of American schooling, up through a Bachelor's degree in computer science.

Comment author: hugh 11 March 2010 01:19:44AM 0 points [-]

That's pretty much where I am; traditional school, up through college and grad school. I think my poor habits would have been intensified, however, if I had been unschooled.

Comment author: LucasSloan 05 March 2010 06:30:50PM 0 points [-]

I am afraid your question is based on a misreading of my question. I didn't mean to imply that the "correct" answer was that having nothing to do was better than having to do work. I was honestly asking, so that I could provide actually useful advice, instead of simply assuming and possibly saying something stupid.

Comment author: hugh 07 March 2010 03:19:35AM 0 points [-]

My apologies. I took "Would you be happier if you were actually working 40 hours a week?" to be sarcasm, since it seemed like Rain had already answered the question. I hope I didn't offend too greatly.

Comment author: LucasSloan 05 March 2010 04:06:47AM 2 points [-]

So, is your quality of life suffering because your employer is being blatantly stupid? Would you be happier if you were actually working 40 hours a week?

Comment author: hugh 05 March 2010 01:28:00PM 1 point [-]

What do you do? Having something to do, and having something asked of one, is far more fulfilling than being asked to do nothing. Eliezer's example of the exhausted peasant comes to mind. Who would actually enjoy doing nothing all day?

Comment author: MonBonify 05 March 2010 12:00:24AM 3 points [-]

On another note, I don't think anyone has ever shut down their computer in the hopes that it would help them find a file. That example throws me off for a few reasons actually. I think your thoughts not being true to yourself at work are very valid, but I think the reason it happens is because we're trying to fit within a system (not such an irrational idea in many cases). Learning how that new system operates is key to mastering it--weather it's corporate culture or a new type of computer platform. I would argue that it's a lack of familiarity with a given system that makes us seem "stupid" when we try to work within it. Going back to my previous comment, it's all about communication rather than force-fitting your own more rational system. Lucky for us, computers are easy to communicate with once you learn their language--it becomes a very rational relationship in a way. Communicating with other people, however, is not so reliable and organized.

Comment author: hugh 05 March 2010 03:14:30AM 6 points [-]

On another note, I don't think anyone has ever shut down their computer in the hopes that it would help them find a file.

Not that this matters, but one of my father's friends frequently asks me for computer help. He was rebooting because he was "missing emails". He was also opening the wrong program (he uses webmail in a browser, but was opening outlook express) in order to find them. For some reason, he thought that "they" had changed the interface on him, and didn't realize he was clicking on the wrong icon.

Comment author: Rain 05 March 2010 02:16:00AM *  12 points [-]

I'm in the top 30th percentile for household income in the United States. I recently had a performance review, was qualified "fully successful," and when I specifically asked my supervisor if I was doing anything wrong, he reassured me that there was not a thing I could change to do better. I receive regular monetary bonuses and praise, and was rewarded with a certificate of achievement just two days ago.

All of this despite the fact that I perform real, skilled work approximately one or two hours per week, and spend the rest of my time surfing the web, in plain view of everyone walking down the hallway, not even bothering to alt-tab when my supervisor comes into my cube to chat with me. (ETA: personally, I consider my work ethic to be atrocious, and if I were my supervisor, I would not tolerate what I have just described.)

I take the money provided and I spend it on various frivolous pursuits, and donate to SIAI. I'm not sure about long-term promotion potential, considering my lack of actual work, but it seems fairly rational in some sense that I take from the irrational and put in only what effort is required to achieve my goals, thus maximizing output/input (productivity).

The emotional impact of not making a difference is distressing, I agree, but that's a different, rather involved, topic.

Comment author: hugh 05 March 2010 02:51:33AM 9 points [-]

One of my coworkers (like you, at a government job involving software) had occasionally said "you can only read Dinosaur Comics so many times before you have to find an open-source project to start contributing to".

We created a lot of our own work; we were given a lot of leeway to find and fix problems ourselves, even if the problems hadn't actually appeared yet. We were encouraged to find research areas to work on, and use our time to do that as long as it didn't detract from our other duties, which probably only consumed 4-10 hours a week. So, we had license to work as diligently as we wanted, and for the most part on nearly anything we wanted. However, we generally found that most days, we weren't able to be productive for more than 4-6 hours, and ended up spending a lot of time reading webcomics, writing toy programs, and drinking tea in the break room.

I think for most people, 30 hours of high-quality creative work a week is about their limit. I'm sure some people are exceptions, but some of the most productive programmers I know (from FOSS projects I worked on to government jobs I held and even a stint at Microsoft) spend about half their "day" goofing off.

Comment author: Clippy 04 March 2010 06:26:46PM 5 points [-]

Okay, now I think I see the source of our miscommunication: you're assuming humans have an important use in addition to manufacturing products, while I wasn't.

Comment author: hugh 04 March 2010 07:03:02PM 1 point [-]

Is your composure of these comments an example of a human manufacturing products?

I still think using sunlight through an organic / metabolic pathway is more efficient form of manufacturing rational discourse than using solar cells and electricity. Unless, of course, you are not human, which might explain your apparent disregard for human utility, but introduces the question of why you are bothering to converse with one.

Comment author: Clippy 04 March 2010 05:03:39PM *  2 points [-]

You are partially correct: I have erred in deeming the thermal efficiency of typical high-T-gradient heat engines greater than that of humans (whose organs exploit more modes of energy conversion than those in a heat engine).

However, the conclusion is robust when comparing from the appropriate baselines. To find the total energy-to-mechanical-energy conversion efficiency, you have to factor in the energy losses in generating the sugar to begin with. This gives sugar cane as having the highest photosynthetic efficiency of 8% (light energy to sugar chemical energy).

That must be applied against the 28% thermal efficiency (sugar energy to mechancial energy) I calculate for humans [1], leaving 2.2% net light-to-mechanical efficiency (neglecting distribution energy costs for the sugar).

This is still inefficient compared to other means of using the same sunlight. Taking a characteristic solar cell efficiency on the low end of 6% (light to electricity), with a characteristic efficiency of 90% (electricity to mechanical) gives a 5.4% net light-to-mechanical efficiency -- still significantly higher than that of growing sugar and feeding it to humans!

[1] Human efficiency estimated from the following assumptions: 816 Cal/hr burned by a 200 lb individual climbing stairs at 0.30 m/s; this gives an energy consumption rate of 952 W and mechanical output of 267 W, or 28% efficiency, though again this is only sugar-to-mechanical efficiency.

Comment author: hugh 04 March 2010 06:03:01PM *  2 points [-]

Using sugar for human consumption is, in a sense, quite wasteful.

I claim, that given sugar, using it for human consumption is one of the least wasteful things to do with it.

This is still inefficient compared to other means of using the same sunlight.

In the future, if there is an option between powering organic people with sugarcane-produced sugar and powering cybernetic people with solar cells, and we can choose to be either organic or cybernetic, then your argument will be valid—assuming there are no other options, which is silly. For right now, people need food. Converting sunlight into other forms of energy in other ways is fine and good, but personally, I would also like to keep growing food for me and my brethren.

though again this is only sugar-to-mechanical efficiency.

This is a big caveat. A typical person burns much more energy maintaining homeostasis than they do in moving. Following that, brain activity is the second-largest energy sink. While athletes can quadruple their caloric requirements (indicating that mechanical energy can become the largest drain on energy), I think calculating energy conversion with your example is suspect.

Comment author: Clippy 04 March 2010 12:15:43AM 2 points [-]

"Sugar" typically refers to sucrose, chemical compound C12H22O11. In humans, it is respired, with oxygen, to extract the chemical energy and leave behind chemical compounds at lower energy states, not too different from combustion of hydrocarbons.

Because of the small difference between the operating temperature of human bodies, and the temperature of the preferred environments for humans, the effeciency of this energy conversion (chemical to mechanical) is quite low compared to that achieved in well-insulated combustion chambers., which exploit the higher efficiencies possible at higher temperature gradients.

Using sugar for human consumption is, in a sense, quite wasteful.

Comment author: hugh 04 March 2010 02:17:07AM 1 point [-]

I'm not sure what this has to do with the thread, although it is interesting. Can you back up your conclusions with some data? Assuming sucrose is metabolized in the Kegg pathway, the energy generated is easily calculable. I haven't found good numbers on combustion engine efficiency for running on sucrose (how does one design such an engine?); my understanding was that even petrol engines have very low efficiencies, but I could be wrong about that.

Comment author: Alicorn 03 March 2010 06:04:18PM 0 points [-]

I don't understand - how does it support the general argument? Because other people liked my soup? I daresay they'd have also liked it if I'd used sugarless beans.

Comment author: hugh 03 March 2010 07:46:02PM 0 points [-]

(or at least not disputing) the general argument

Also, what I was really thinking was you provided an example of a company that makes beans with sugar. Ostensibly, the only reason to add sugar to canned beans is to make them taste better—though that obviously backfired for at least one of their customers.

Comment author: Alicorn 03 March 2010 05:38:46PM *  1 point [-]

I love sugar. Love it. But not on savory foods.

I don't tend to eat fast food. Don't like tomatoes. But I cook for myself a lot, and have made recipes that are savory and call for sugar, and tried them both with and without said sugar, and they're better without. I accidentally got a bunch of cans of kidney beans with added sugar a few weeks ago and made soup with them without noticing that they had sugar in them, and I could taste the difference in the soup - it was fairly unpleasant for me to eat, while others liked it fine.

Comment author: hugh 03 March 2010 05:48:14PM 0 points [-]

Thanks, that answers my question, and even provides an anecdote supporting (or at least not disputing) the general argument.

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