Comment author: orthonormal 16 January 2011 09:33:56PM 0 points [-]

Incidentally, I suspect that this was downvoted for starting an argument over definitions. (The downvotes weren't mine, FYI.)

Comment author: icebrand 05 February 2011 03:42:28PM 0 points [-]

Thanks for the information. Edited out. The main issue I had with the original comment was that it seemed to assume everyone would agree with a specific, vastly oversimplified definition of organic death. In reality organic death is a process that happens over a long period of time and has not happened completely by the time the brain reaches LN2 temperatures in ideal circumstances. It could easily be reversible via biological means.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 14 January 2011 09:25:19PM 1 point [-]

My problem with "broken" in this context is that it fails to distinguish between a brain that fails to function as intended in some important capacity -- for example, one that is incapable of identifying its person's wife -- and one that fails to function as intended in any capacity at all.

I guess I can go with "inanimate," if you want (since you say "ceases to be animate"). It seems weird to fail to distinguish between a corpse and a statue, but not unbearably weird.

Comment author: icebrand 14 January 2011 09:52:31PM 0 points [-]

Perhaps a different prefix would make it more clear that it is a formerly animate object, or between stages of being animate. E.g. postanimate or transanimate.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 14 January 2011 08:36:16PM 2 points [-]

I haven't claimed that the person dies; I've claimed the brain does.

Sure, perhaps future technology will include the ability to reconstruct the person from the dead cells of the person's brain, in which case the person survives... no argument. And in that case cryonics is, as you say, a form of survival.

But the cells remain dead, as does the organ they comprise. And the comment I was responding to was talking about ways to allow a brain to survive without the body's blood flow, not about people.

And, sure, it's possible that future technology will include the ability to reconstruct a living brain from the brain's dead cells. Actually, I suspect that will be much easier than reconstructing the person. And it's possible that it will include the ability to repair the cells themselves and restore them to their former state.

Personally, I would say it's still a dead brain, much as my ability to reforge a broken sword doesn't prevent the sword from breaking. But that's a purely semantic question... the reality is the same whether we call the brain "dead" or not.

So, OK, what term would you prefer I use? (Resting? Stunned? Pining for the fjords? Passed on? This brain is no more! It has ceased to be! It is an ex-brain!)

Or do you object to using any terminology to differentiate a post-cryonics brain from a pre-the-event-that-ordinarily-entails-a-funeral brain?

Comment author: icebrand 14 January 2011 09:16:01PM *  1 point [-]

But the cells remain dead, as does the organ they comprise.

In the case of vitrification under ideal conditions this is not true of most of the cells. There is a spectrum of cryonics cases, and many of them do have a high rate of cell death, but the goal of cryonics is to prevent cell death to the greatest degree possible.

Death is a process, not an all or nothing proposition. You don't really need to assign a category "dead" or "not dead" to understand what's going on. The brain is broken beyond simple repair and ceases to be animate. Maybe a more useful term would be one that connotes brokenness rather than irreparability.

Most cells survive for several hours after clinical death. Ten minutes or so without oxygen (blood flow) initiates an ischemic cascade that current technology cannot halt, but this cascade takes a lot of time before most of the cells actually die.

ETA: It is a good point that cell death isn't the same problem as information loss. A really powerful AI with high grade molecular nanotech could probably recover more information by analyzing non-viable cells than a more minimalistic rejuvenation technology that simply rescues the remaining viable cells and replaces missing ones.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 14 January 2011 01:48:56PM 5 points [-]

What is does is allow a brain to survive without its own body's blood flow, and there are other, artificial ways to do so (or cryonics, as well).

Cryonics doesn't allow a brain to survive without its own body's blood flow.

Cryonics doesn't allow a brain to survive, period.

Cryonics involves killing a brain (or preparing a dead brain) in such a way as to maximize the chances that some future technology can extract its instantiated mind.

A worthy goal, but a different one.

Comment author: icebrand 14 January 2011 07:45:35PM *  -2 points [-]

Cryonics involves killing a brain (or preparing a dead brain) in such a way as to maximize the chances that some future technology can extract its instantiated mind.

[edit to take away the quibble about definitions]

Cryonics keeps open the possibilities both of uploading and robust repair scenarios. Assuming that it will play out one way or the other is unnecessarily specific for a belief about the future. There may be e.g. cultural or contractual reasons to repair people instead of extracting the information to instantiate on a digital substrate.

Comment author: jwhendy 11 January 2011 09:26:35PM *  0 points [-]

Point taken, though it seems like that's a common issue for the whole subject. It's been hard for me to find (in a short time) any studies about polyphasic sleep. The primary source of any information seems to be anecdotes. It seems that the entire concept arose from someone who appears to have invented this schedule here. "Uberman" was his naming convention since he was reading Nietzsche at the time.

I did find it quite interesting to read that post as well as this one which reports that he's been on the "Everyman schedule" for 3 years as of 2009 and this one where he compares Everyman to Uberman.

While I'm still skeptical, such positive reviews from someone who's tried it does entice me...

Edit: He... is a she!

Comment author: icebrand 11 January 2011 11:16:56PM 3 points [-]

Here is PureDoxyK's response to the Wozniak criticism. There's a funny bit...

  • There are no women doing polyphasic sleep. Which makes myself, my friend who first did Uberman with me, and my hero Heidi who’s gone more than a year-and-a-half on Uberman by now the most attractive, clean guys in HISTORY! Mind you, he doesn’t just state this silliness, but uses it as EVIDENCE for the fact that polyphasic sleep can’t work (because women’s “hormones” don’t allow it somehow). Yeah, ROFLcopter.
Comment author: TheOtherDave 10 January 2011 05:09:02PM 5 points [-]

I can't wait for the post-cryo meetups

Well, I suppose you don't have to... or at least, you don't have to experience waiting... but I rather wish you would.

Comment author: icebrand 11 January 2011 01:15:58AM 1 point [-]

Yes, plan A is definitely to wait as long as possible. :)

Comment author: icebrand 09 January 2011 08:32:06PM 1 point [-]

For me this is in the "not surprising, but important to notice" category. Every kind of activism is a kind of marketing. The branding of important topics like cryonics, rationality, transhumanism, etc. tends to suffer from neglect, or plays out in weird ways that will never go mainstream. This may be due to the way we tend to think about them or the kind of people attracted to them.

Comment author: icebrand 08 January 2011 09:12:27PM 4 points [-]

This is an amazing story. Congratulations on your courage and the chance you have with your mother which many others do not. Even if it is small it is a source of hope.

This is the first case I've heard of where brain only cryonics was combined with a traditional funeral. KrioRus is the only current cryonics company that does brain only right now, so it is possible that more such cases may originate there in the future.

If this does become public in Russia, we may be presented with a useful data point about how controversial brain-only cryonics is. My theory is that it is less controversial and easier to rationalize for people who have failed to internalize the fact that the brain is a human being. If Ted Williams had been brain only, I wonder how that controversy would have played out differently.

Comment author: icebrand 08 January 2011 05:32:11AM *  3 points [-]

On the topic of scholarship, I'd like to mention that if one takes the notion of surviving cryopreservation seriously, it's probably a good idea to read up on cryobiology. Have at least a basic understanding of what's going to happen to your cells when your time comes. There is a rich and complex field behind it which very few individuals have much grasp on.

If the bug bites you to do so, you may even be able to go into the field and make some breakthroughs. Huge advances have been made in recent decades by very small numbers of cryonics-motivated scientists, suggesting that there is probably a lot of low-hanging fruit remaining. Even if there's not, it seems like relatively small amounts of incremental progress in this field could have a large total utility if cryonics somehow catches on and becomes widespread in the near future.

Note that Aschwin de Wolf has published a good deal of high quality technical information on his blog Depressed Metabolism, which is a good starting point. Leading cryobiologist Brian Wowk has also been answering all kinds of questions over on the Immortality Institute Cryonics Forum. Many of his publications are to be found here.

Comment author: TheRev 07 January 2011 05:58:22PM *  2 points [-]

I didn't actually realize cryonics was such a hot topic on this site until after I had posted, so I became a little worried that I'd get beaten with the newbie stick for it.

I consider myself a transhumanist (in the sense that I find genetic alteration, computer augmentation, life extension, etc to be desirable goals, not in the sense that I drank the Kurzweil Kool-Aid and think that all this is inevitable or even probable in my lifetime), but I had never really considered cryonics as a major transhumanist approach. I'm certainly not opposed to cryonics on any kind of ethical grounds (my personal pragmatic concerns are a matter for another thread entirely), but since this is a question of the policy rather than the science side of cryonics, I have to go with my general observation that legislatures almost inevitably show up a day late and a dollar short. I think that the first wave of legislation on the topic will come at least one legislative session after the irrational masses start to get worked up into a religious frenzy over cryonics. So this is, to me, an issue better suited for decade rather than year predictions. I am however, compelled to agree with you that the likelihood of pro-cryonics legislation appears to be significantly less than the likelihood of anti-cryonics legislation. Hell, even if I weren't a transhumanist, the civil libertarian in me would be appalled by Michigan's facepalmingly bureaucratic handling of the situation. "Cryonics Institute is clearly operating as both a funeral establishment and cemetery without any state oversight." Do we really need a government permission slip to bury/freeze our dead?

Also, why am I completely unsurprised by the fact that Arizona was the state to try and ban cryonics?

Comment author: icebrand 07 January 2011 06:47:25PM *  0 points [-]

I'd be more than happy to debate any and all pragmatic concerns you can think of in another thread. Feel free to start one in Discussion. I'm not signed up yet, focusing largely on the advocacy side of things. As a younger adult it seems like advocacy has a higher potential payoff both in research getting done before my turn comes and having freedom and necessary infrastructure to get preserved under ideal circumstances. Currently it's very difficult to arrange an ideal preservation.

I'm not 100% libertarian, and try to see both sides. There is something to the argument that there should be a law requiring cryonics organizations to have good financial arrangements covering long term care. The state has a legitimate interest in preventing the thawing of patients, along similar (though not identical) lines to the interest it has in preventing graveyards from having to sell their land to developers. But that interest is not even remotely close to being an adequate excuse to prevent patients from achieving an ideal preservation. We're being handed a false dichotomy when forced to regulate cryonics as if it were a cemetery operation (or as a standardly defined medical one, if it comes to that).

View more: Next