Comment author: Jiro 30 September 2014 02:58:27PM *  3 points [-]

Most people don't analyze things much at all. It's possible to ask a random person and be told he values everyone equally, and that's in some literal sense not saying what he believes. But if you just rephrased the question as "do you care more about yourself than someone else--would you pay my mortgage as readily as your own", he would answer "oh, if that's what you mean, then of course I care about myself more". Technically he's inconsistent, but it's a very shallow sort of inconsistency based mostly on the fact that he doesn't analyze things much; it isn't some kind of hypocrisy or denial.

Comment author: irrational 30 September 2014 07:57:22PM 0 points [-]

Maybe I am amoral, but I don't value myself the same as a random person even in a theoretical sense. What I do is I recognize that in some sense I am no more valuable to humanity than any other person. But I am way more valuable to me - if I die, that brings utility to 0, and while it can be negative in some circumstances (aka Life is not worth living), some random person's death clearly cannot do so, people are constantly dying in huge numbers all the time, and the cost of each death is non-zero to me, but must be relatively small, else I would easily be in the negative territory, and I am not.

Comment author: Kyre 26 September 2014 05:39:31AM 3 points [-]

My current rationalisation for my level of charitable giving is "if, say, the wealthiest top billion humans gave as much as me, most of the worlds current problems that can be solved by charity would be solved in short order".

I use this as a labor-saving angst prevention device.

Me: "Am I a good person ? Am I giving too little ? How should I figure out how much to give ? What does my giving reveal about my true preferences ? What would people I admire think of me if they knew ?"

Me: "Extra trillions thing. Get back to work."

Comment author: irrational 27 September 2014 12:02:29AM 2 points [-]

That's interesting, but how much money is needed to solve "most of the world's current problems"?

Comment author: irrational 25 September 2014 04:40:18PM 0 points [-]

This thread is interesting, but off-topic. There is lots of useful discussion on the most effective ways to give, but that wasn't my question.

Comment author: irrational 25 September 2014 04:55:45PM 1 point [-]

To forestall an objection: I think investing with a goal of improving the world as opposed to maximizing income, is basically the same as giving, so that comes into the category of how to spend, not how much money to allocate for it. If you were investing rather than giving, and had income from it, you'd simply allocate it back into the category.

Comment author: banx 25 September 2014 01:09:35AM 7 points [-]

My temporary solution is to max out my employer's annual match. That the maximum match is somewhere between 10 and 15 percent of my income is very convenient, as that makes me feel like I'm contributing the "expected" amount for an EA (this feeling is only important for fuzzies) but still leaves me with what seems to be a good amount to save and spend. It also allows me to avoid committing an answer to the question of whether to donate now or invest and donate later. The guaranteed, almost-immediate, soon-to-expire 100% return provided by the match wins pretty clearly over the EV of investing and donating later, and since I feel like I'm donating enough for now, I can evaluate what to do with what's being invested later on, based on my wants and needs.

Comment author: irrational 25 September 2014 04:51:59PM 3 points [-]

That's a very useful point. I do have employer match and it is likely to be an inflection point for effectiveness of any money I give.

Comment author: Jiro 25 September 2014 01:53:35PM *  0 points [-]

The only reason that medical bills and supporting a family are even questions is that he values his family's well being more than he does that of someone who might be helped by charity. Phrasing things in utilitarian terms, he puts a much higher utility on his family than on a random person. As such, he should only donate to charity once he has spent enough money on his family that the utility from doing is, per dollar, so much less that that factor overwhelms the large multiplier that he gives for his family's welfare compared to a random person's. Given his description, he clearly hasn't reached that point yet, so he should spend nothing on charity.

This leaves guilt (or warm fuzzies, which are the flip side) as the only reason to spend anything at all. The rational amount (ignoring questions like "what utility to I get from assuaging my guilt") is zero. Take care of your family, who needs it, and stop feeling guilty for not donating.

Comment author: irrational 25 September 2014 04:50:20PM 1 point [-]

I apologize for being unclear in my description. At the moment, after all my bills I have money left over. This implicitly goes toward retirement. So it wouldn't be slighting my family to give some more to charity. I also have enough saved to semi-retire today (e.g. if I chose to move to a cheap area I could live like a lower-middle class person on my savings alone), and my regular 401K contributions (assuming I don't retire) would mean that I'll have plenty of income if I retire at 65 or so.

Comment author: ciphergoth 25 September 2014 07:08:58AM 14 points [-]

The important thing is not to burn out, which would substantially reduce future giving. Right now I'm aiming only to max out Google's $6K/year matching limit. I probably won't increase that until I have a lot of savings, like on the order of several months of salary. Then if my partner is OK with it I'll head towards giving 10%, and after that I'd hope to give away 50% of future pay rises; whether we go beyond that will depend on how our income and outgoings compare at that point.

I wouldn't pay any attention to any comments that don't discuss the commenter's giving, by the way! You would probably get more informative answers if the question was "How did you decide how much of your income to give to charity?"

Comment author: irrational 25 September 2014 04:45:11PM 2 points [-]

I was hoping that answering "How did you decide how much of your income to give to charity?" is obviously one way of answering my original question, and so some people would answer that. But you may be right that it's too ambiguous.

Comment author: Mitchell_Porter 25 September 2014 08:39:55AM 2 points [-]

I have a good intuition on how to allocate the money

Isn't that a far more formidable problem than just deciding how much to give? Maybe you should tell us your allocation method.

Comment author: irrational 25 September 2014 04:42:25PM 2 points [-]

I don't mean that I have one that's superior to anyone else's, but there are tools to deal with this problem, various numbers that indicate risk, waste level, impact, etc. I can also decide what areas to give in based on personal preferences/biases.

Comment author: ChristianKl 25 September 2014 01:42:47PM 7 points [-]

I am precisely questioning the assumption that effective altruism == charitable giving.

In that case your example of bike rides is pretty bad. It's a strawman. The comparison is bed nets or deworming.

Comment author: irrational 25 September 2014 04:40:18PM 0 points [-]

This thread is interesting, but off-topic. There is lots of useful discussion on the most effective ways to give, but that wasn't my question.

Comment author: cousin_it 12 December 2013 02:52:22AM *  2 points [-]

Well, it seems possible to set up an equivalent game (with the same probabilities etc) where the sorcerer is affecting a card deck that's shown to you.

Maybe I should have drawn the distinction differently. If the sorcerer can only affect your experiences, that's basically the same as affecting a card deck. But if the sorcerer can affect the way you process these experiences, e.g. force you to not do a Bayesian update where you normally would, or reach into your mind and make you think you had a different prior all along, that's different because it makes you an imperfect reasoner. We know how to answer questions like "what should a perfect reasoner do?" but we don't know much about "what should such-and-such imperfect reasoner do?"

Comment author: irrational 12 December 2013 03:03:11AM 0 points [-]

I see what you mean now, I think. I don't have a good model of dealing with a situation where someone can influence the actual updating process either. I was always thinking of a setup where the sorcerer affects something other than this.

By the way, I remember reading a book which had a game-theoretical analysis of games where one side had god-like powers (omniscience, etc), but I don't remember what it was called. Does anyone reading this by any chance know which book I mean?

Comment author: Dagon 11 December 2013 10:39:46PM 0 points [-]

I think your degree of belief in their rationality (and their trustworthiness in terms of not trying to mislead you, and their sanity in terms of having priors at least mildly compatible with yours) should have a very large effect on how much you update based on the evidence that they claim a belief.

The fact that they know of each other and still have wildly divergent beliefs indicates that they don't trust in each other's reasoning skills. Why would you give them much more weight than they gave each other?

Comment author: irrational 11 December 2013 11:55:32PM 0 points [-]

For this experiment, I don't want to get involved in the social aspect of this. Suppose they aren't aware of each other, or it's very impolite to talk about sorcerers, or whatever. I am curious about their individual minds, and about an outside observer that can observe both (i.e. me).

View more: Next