In response to Reasons to believe
Comment author: [deleted] 04 December 2013 02:27:42PM 0 points [-]

Sir Karl Popper argued against induction and against authority in Conjectures and Refutations (and in most of his books). Provisional trust in scientific claims can be useful, but all conjectures are subject to critical examination and perhaps refutation. Popper said the scientific method is defined by use of falsifiability, not by authoritty.

In response to comment by [deleted] on Reasons to believe
Comment author: irrational 07 December 2013 05:42:59AM 3 points [-]

That's the standard scientific point of view, certainly. But would an Orthodox Bayesian agree?:) Isn't there a very strong prior?

Comment author: KnaveOfAllTrades 02 December 2013 11:16:19PM *  0 points [-]

Just realised you're the post author, so: Thanks for posting this, it's something I've wondered about in relation to myself, as well. :)

1: No tentacles

But imagine that we also have independent evidence that Earth is 1 million years old.

This reminds me of something Eliezer once said--"How would I explain the event of my left arm being replaced by a blue tentacle? The answer is that I wouldn't. It isn't going to happen." We do not observe a young (even 10^6) Earth, and by suggesting the possibility of one as counterevidence against the strength of the 'a priori' reasoning I advocated, you must be smuggling in a circular assumption that young Earth models have significant probability.

Your argument as I understand it is roughly that since my a priori reasoning would fail in young Earth scenarios, then that reasoning is unreliable. But if our prior for young Earth scenarios is extremely low, then it will only very rarely happen that my reasoning will fail in that particular way. Therefore for your argument to go through, you would have to place a high prior probability on young Earth scenarios.

To put it another another way: If observing a young Earth would be evidence against my a priori reasoning, then by conservation of expected evidence, our actual observation of a non-young Earth must be evidence in favour of that reasoning.

People in a modern day situation, and LW'ers in particular, are better placed to understand that 'naturalistic' explanations are preferable, and that magic ones should incur huge complexity penalties. Therefore we should have low priors on young Earths, because most of our probability will be concentrated in models where intelligent life arises from nonintelligent (hence slow) processes as opposed to intelligent (e.g. God) processes.

Moreover, the more intelligent the process that generated us, the more we push the explanatory buck back onto that process. God is an extreme case where the mystery of the apparent improbability of human intelligence is replaced with the mystery of the apparent improbability of divine intelligence. But even less extreme cases like superhumanly (but still decidedly 'finitely intelligent') entities simulating us incurs a penalty for passing the explanatory buck back. Natural selection is so elegant and formidable because it is an existing behaviour of what we already observe.

2: Insanity screens off charity

Creationists like to cite irreducible organs

If--even before accepting evolution by natural selection--you can put an extremely high probability on creationists spewing objections like 'irreducible organs' regardless of the veracity of evolution by natural selection, then you can pretty much write off the counterarguments of creationists, because your observation of creationists making these arguments is extremely weak evidence that there is anything to these counterarguments. Now, this is circular if your only reason for not taking creationists seriously is that they are wrong natural selection/irreducible organs, but there's 'any number' of other reasons to suspect creationists are engaging in motivated cognition.

The same way that if natural selection provides a substantial portion of the explanation of evolution, then, you need look no further, if cognitive biases/sociology provide a substantial portion of or even all of the explanation for creationists talking about irreducible organs, then their actual counterarguments are screened off by your prior knowledge of what causes them to deploy those counterarguments; you should be less inclined to consider their arguments than a random string generator that happened to output a sentence that reads as a counterargument against natural selection.

Comment author: irrational 07 December 2013 05:40:56AM *  0 points [-]

if cognitive biases/sociology provide a substantial portion of or even all of the explanation for creationists talking about irreducible organs, then their actual counterarguments are screened off by your prior knowledge of what causes them to deploy those counterarguments; you should be less inclined to consider their arguments than a random string generator that happened to output a sentence that reads as a counterargument against natural selection.

I've just discovered Argument Screens Off Authority by EY, so it seems I've got an authority on my side too:) You can't eliminate an argument even if it's presented by untrustworthy people.

In response to Initiation Ceremony
Comment author: Rixie 29 March 2013 08:08:51PM 2 points [-]

Oh my gosh but I actually am stunned speechless.

I can't even begin to express the way I feel right now, Eliezer Yudkowsky, my friend, you are in possesion of a rare and powerful gift!

In response to comment by Rixie on Initiation Ceremony
Comment author: irrational 04 December 2013 09:57:29PM 1 point [-]

It only goes to show how we are all susceptible to power of stories, rather than able to examine them dispassionately, like a rationalist presumably should.

Comment author: Lumifer 03 December 2013 05:24:31AM 0 points [-]

You're steelmanning the creationist position.

Sure, but we are not really talking about the creationists here, we're talking about whether evolution is falsifiable and in which sense.

In response to comment by Lumifer on Reasons to believe
Comment author: irrational 03 December 2013 05:30:17AM 0 points [-]

As the person who asked the question, I'd like to say that I don't particularly care about what creationists believe either.

Comment author: ialdabaoth 03 December 2013 04:06:30AM *  2 points [-]

I can't even imagine what premises you are relying on for such a statement.

It's a modification of Hypercalvinism / Dispensationalism / Dominionism / Divine Command Theory that I was taught as a child.

Essentially, power defines morality, because "fuck you, what are you going to do about it?". And (to quote the actual book Catch-22), "Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing".

Basically, the strong are morally justified - in a sense, morally compelled - to dominate and torment the weak, because they can. And the weak deserve every minute of it, because fuck them.

I've spent... roughly four to five hours a day, every day, for 35+ years, trying to update out of that belief system, and yet I fundamentally still operate under it.

Comment author: irrational 03 December 2013 04:18:53AM *  3 points [-]

Well then,

  1. you should want to be powerful yourself - so certainly go and exploit the society:)

  2. the powerful are really not paying for it, and if they are it's completely peanuts to them. If you are screwing up anyone by so-called leeching, it's the middle class:) You are not bad to "them", they don't care about you one way or another.

  3. I am rich and powerful (compared to you, at least), and I hereby command you to do it:)

In response to comment by maia on Failing to update
Comment author: ialdabaoth 02 December 2013 08:59:41PM -1 points [-]

I don't care if you are a leech or not; you're a person, and therefore you being sad is a bad thing.

Why? Why shouldn't bad people be sad? And why aren't people who are useless to the powerful bad people?

(note: this is likely a rationalization of my actual fully general counterargument, which is "because fuck you.")

Comment author: irrational 03 December 2013 03:59:40AM 0 points [-]

I really don't see what your usefulness/uselessness to powerful people has to do with you being bad. I can't even imagine what premises you are relying on for such a statement.

Comment author: Lumifer 03 December 2013 03:35:30AM *  1 point [-]

You seem to be saying that the Theory of Evolution is unfalsifiable, at least in practice. That would be a bad thing, not a good thing.

Let's be a bit more precise. Evolution is a mechanism. It works given certain well-known preconditions. The fact that it works is not contested by anyone sane.

What actually is contested by creationists is that the mechanism of evolution is sufficient to generate all the variety of life we see on Earth and that it actually did, in fact, generate all that variety. *That* claim is falsifiable -- e.g. by showing that some cause/mechanism/agency other than evolution played an important part in the development of life on Earth.

In response to comment by Lumifer on Reasons to believe
Comment author: irrational 03 December 2013 03:41:16AM 1 point [-]

I think it better be true that both of these are falsifiable (and they both are). I agree that the former is overwhelmingly likely and no one I'd care to talk to disputes it. In any event I am only talking about the latter. The fact that it completely explains the variety of life on Earth is the very thing I am accepting on faith, and that's what I don't like.

In response to Reasons to believe
Comment author: shminux 02 December 2013 11:03:30PM 0 points [-]

In other words, is it epistemologically wrong to rely on an authority that has produced a number of correct statements (that I could and did verify) to be more or less correct in the future?

Which statements pertinent to both evolution and plate tectonics did you verify?

In response to comment by shminux on Reasons to believe
Comment author: irrational 03 December 2013 03:35:11AM 1 point [-]

Essentially none. I have a lot of evidence of science being right (at least as far as I can reasonably tell) in some other subject areas such as parts of physics, chemistry, cognitive science, etc.

I've read some FAQs on both, but it doesn't count as verification. I suppose I can look at the map of S. America and Africa and see coastlines roughly match, that is some evidence for plate tectonics. Also, as I mentioned in reply to other comments, it seems correct that with genetics being right (that I strongly believe), natural selection would certainly work to cause some species to change. I think even creationists nowadays are forced to agree with this.

Comment author: KnaveOfAllTrades 02 December 2013 11:16:19PM *  0 points [-]

Just realised you're the post author, so: Thanks for posting this, it's something I've wondered about in relation to myself, as well. :)

1: No tentacles

But imagine that we also have independent evidence that Earth is 1 million years old.

This reminds me of something Eliezer once said--"How would I explain the event of my left arm being replaced by a blue tentacle? The answer is that I wouldn't. It isn't going to happen." We do not observe a young (even 10^6) Earth, and by suggesting the possibility of one as counterevidence against the strength of the 'a priori' reasoning I advocated, you must be smuggling in a circular assumption that young Earth models have significant probability.

Your argument as I understand it is roughly that since my a priori reasoning would fail in young Earth scenarios, then that reasoning is unreliable. But if our prior for young Earth scenarios is extremely low, then it will only very rarely happen that my reasoning will fail in that particular way. Therefore for your argument to go through, you would have to place a high prior probability on young Earth scenarios.

To put it another another way: If observing a young Earth would be evidence against my a priori reasoning, then by conservation of expected evidence, our actual observation of a non-young Earth must be evidence in favour of that reasoning.

People in a modern day situation, and LW'ers in particular, are better placed to understand that 'naturalistic' explanations are preferable, and that magic ones should incur huge complexity penalties. Therefore we should have low priors on young Earths, because most of our probability will be concentrated in models where intelligent life arises from nonintelligent (hence slow) processes as opposed to intelligent (e.g. God) processes.

Moreover, the more intelligent the process that generated us, the more we push the explanatory buck back onto that process. God is an extreme case where the mystery of the apparent improbability of human intelligence is replaced with the mystery of the apparent improbability of divine intelligence. But even less extreme cases like superhumanly (but still decidedly 'finitely intelligent') entities simulating us incurs a penalty for passing the explanatory buck back. Natural selection is so elegant and formidable because it is an existing behaviour of what we already observe.

2: Insanity screens off charity

Creationists like to cite irreducible organs

If--even before accepting evolution by natural selection--you can put an extremely high probability on creationists spewing objections like 'irreducible organs' regardless of the veracity of evolution by natural selection, then you can pretty much write off the counterarguments of creationists, because your observation of creationists making these arguments is extremely weak evidence that there is anything to these counterarguments. Now, this is circular if your only reason for not taking creationists seriously is that they are wrong natural selection/irreducible organs, but there's 'any number' of other reasons to suspect creationists are engaging in motivated cognition.

The same way that if natural selection provides a substantial portion of the explanation of evolution, then, you need look no further, if cognitive biases/sociology provide a substantial portion of or even all of the explanation for creationists talking about irreducible organs, then their actual counterarguments are screened off by your prior knowledge of what causes them to deploy those counterarguments; you should be less inclined to consider their arguments than a random string generator that happened to output a sentence that reads as a counterargument against natural selection.

Comment author: irrational 03 December 2013 03:28:01AM 2 points [-]

I think you are interpreting my comments with too much emphasis on specific examples I give. Sure, Earth being 1 million years old is unlikely, but there could be some equally embarrassing artifact or contradictory evidence. I can't give a realistic example because I haven't studied the problem - that's my whole point. You seem to be saying that the Theory of Evolution is unfalsifiable, at least in practice. That would be a bad thing, not a good thing. Besides, surely, if someone runs cryptological analysis software on the DNA of E. Coli, and get back "(C) Microsoft Corp.", that would rather undermine the theory?:)

In actuality, for me it comes down to trust: I expect if there was important contradictory evidence, someone would report it. Creationists think that biologists are all in on a conspiracy to hide the truth and would not change their mind if they see such evidence - that is rather unlikely from my point of view. That is to say, like you, I am not spending a lot of time evaluating the underlying facts because I think one side is reliable and the other is not. But it feels wrong to me to ignore evidence because of who says it. I understand your argument that you expect some evidence to be presented by them and that makes it unnecessary to examine it, but I think you are wrong. You do have to examine it in case it turns out that their evidence is in fact overwhelming your prior. They could be right in a specific case even if it's unlikely. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Comment author: KnaveOfAllTrades 02 December 2013 10:11:30PM *  2 points [-]

We should expect some amount of evolution by natural selection 'a priori', from various obvious premises such as

(1) There is a reproduction process in which characteristics are inherited (2) Things with X characteristics in Y environment die/live etc.

There seems to be an absence of similarly parsimonious explanations, and the account given by natural selection is compelling. I suspect that even a small amount of knowledge of the empirical evidence for natural selection would establish a lower bound on the share of evolution it causes, such that searching for equally significant factors for evolution of life in general should be expected to fail.

If one set up a mathematical representation of a population that took into account characteristics, life, and death, etc. then natural selection would be the name for a provable behaviour of the system, even if the system were just axiomatised by more basic facts such as (1) and (2). I'm not convinced that the same is true of Aristotelian physics.

I struggle far more to fabricate accounts of our observations without natural selection than I did to get to grips with Newtonian mechanics. As in, accounts that don't leave me more confused (e.g. 'God did it', which is a mysterious non-answer).

Quantum mechanics I do not know well enough (and I'm not sure anyone does) at the level where mathematical reductionism meets theoretical physics, but I would not be surprised if it turned out to be extremely parsimonious given even a small number of our empirical observations.

Heliocentrism also seems much more contingent than natural selection, although possibly less than one thinks, given how prevalent star-planet systems are.

Comment author: irrational 02 December 2013 10:25:53PM 0 points [-]

I agree that certainly some evolution would follow from your premises (1) and (2). But imagine that we also have independent evidence that Earth is 1 million years old. In that case, I'd be forced to say that the Theory of Evolution can't account for the evidence of life we observe, given mutation rates, etc. This is the sort of thing I am worried about when I say I haven't looked at the evidence. As far as I know there isn't any contradictory evidence of this sort, but there may be specific challenges that aren't well-explained. Creationists like to cite irreducible organs and claim that those exist (i.e. where it can't evolve from anything that has any evolutionary advantage) and are contrary to the theory. I know about this objection, but it would be a lot of work to truly evaluate it in depth.

As far as having an alternative: this isn't necessary. I'd be reluctant to go with "God did it", so I'd be fine with "the theory explains 95% of the evidence, and about the other 5% we don't know yet, and we have no better theory".

View more: Prev | Next