Comment author: Lumifer 16 November 2015 03:41:32PM 0 points [-]

Are you sure you're being sufficiently careful and charitable in your reading of my comments?

Sufficiently? X-D Clearly not.

Comment author: jimmy 19 November 2015 06:12:47PM 1 point [-]

Heh, okay. I'll try again from another angle.

To be clear I do see the whole "intrepid explorers" thing pretty much exactly how you said it. I went that way myself and I'm super glad I did. It has been fun and had large payoff for me.

At the same time though, I realize that this is not how everyone sees it. I realize that a lot of the payoffs I've gotten can be interpreted other ways or not believed. I realize that other people want other things. I realize that I am in a sense lucky to not only get anything out of it, but to even be able to afford trying. And I realize why many people wouldn't even consider the possibility.

Given that, it'd be pretty stupid to run around saying "drop what you're doing and go on an adventure!" (or anything like it) as if it weren't that from their perspective not only is "adventure" almost certainly going to lead nowhere, but they must make the pieces. As if "adventure" actually is a good idea for them - for most people, all things considered, it probably isn't.

My point is entirely on the meta level. It's not even about this topic in particular. I frequently see people rounding "this is impossible within my current models" to "this is impossible". Pointing this out is rarely a "woah!" moment for people, because people generally realize that they could be wrong and at some point you have to act on your models. If you've looked and don't see any errors it doesn't mean none exist, but knowing that errors might exist doesn't exactly tell you where to look or what to do differently.

What I think people don't realize is how important it is to think through how you're making that decision - and what actually determines whether they round something off to impossible or not. I don't think people take seriously the idea that taking negligible in-model probabilities seriously will pay off on net - since they've never seen it happen and it seems like a negligible probability thing.

And who knows, maybe it won't pay off for them. Maybe I'm an outlier here too and even if people went through the same mental motions as me it'd be a waste. Personally though, I've noticed that not always but often enough those things that feel "impossible" aren't. I find that if I look hard enough, I often find holes in my "proof of impossibility" and occasionally I'll even find a way to exploit those holes and pull it off. And I see them all the time in other people - people being wrong where they don't even track the possibility that they're wrong and therefore there is no direct path to pointing out their error because they'll round my message to something that can exist in their worldview. I have other things to say about what's going on here that makes me really doubt they're right here, but I think this is sufficient for now.

Given that, I am very hesitant to round p=epsilon down to p=0, and if the stakes are potentially high I make damn sure that my low probability is stable upon more reflection and assumption questioning. I won't always find any holes in my "proof", nor will I always succeed if I do. Nor will I always try, of course. But the motions of consciously tracking the stakes involved and value of an accurate estimate has been very worthwhile for me.

The point I'm making is in the abstract, but one that I see as applying very strongly here. Given that this is one of the examples that seems to have paid off for me, it'd take something pretty interesting (and dare I say "cool"?) to convince me that it was never worth even taking the decision seriously :)

Comment author: Lumifer 16 November 2015 01:58:17AM 0 points [-]

The point is that how "cool" something is is supposed to track the potential value there

Nope. How useful something is is supposed to track the potential value. If I were to go meta, I'd say that "cool" implies a particular kind of signaling to a specific social sub-group. There isn't much "potential value" other than the value of the signal itself.

It seems like you see me as implicitly asking "why do you guys keep making pieces instead of going on an adventure!?!?!"

Still nope. Most people don't want to go on a real adventure -- it's too risky, dangerous, uncomfortable. Most people -- by far -- prefer the predictable job of producing the pieces so that they can pay the mortgage on their suburban McMansion. In the case of academia, going for broke usually results in your being broke (and tenure-less) while a steady production of published papers gives you quite good chances of remaining in academia. Maybe not in the Ivies, but surely there is a college in South Dakota that wants you as a professor :-/

"you must produce the pieces". Really?

If you want tenure, yes. If you don't want tenure, you can do whatever you want.

then you should probably at least ask what your chance of winning the million is before settling for $500.

Sure. The answer is a shrug and if you want a verbalization, it will go along the lines of "Nobody knows".

so they are going to end up stuck as pieceworkers even if there's a way to have much much more"

There is no way for all of them to "have much much more". Whether you think the trade-off is acceptable depends, among other things, on your risk tolerance, but in any case the mode -- the most likely outcome -- is still of you losing.

Comment author: jimmy 16 November 2015 06:30:45AM 0 points [-]

From here it looks like you aren't addressing what I'm actually saying and instead are responding to arguments you think I must be trying to get at.

Are you sure you're being sufficiently careful and charitable in your reading of my comments?

Comment author: Lumifer 12 November 2015 05:16:19PM *  1 point [-]

That's a terrible aesthetic experience.

LOL. Besides the whole going-meta-on-aesthetics thing, wouldn't that depend on how cool the shit it?

and the ease of asking a hunter "ever killed anything?

The hunter will proudly show you his collection of butterflies, all nicely pinned and displayed in proper boxes. Proper boxes are very important, dontcha know?

I have a feeling we have different images in mind. You have a vision of intrepid explorers deep in the jungle, too busy collecting specimens and fighting off piranhas and anacondas to suitably process all they see -- the solid scientific work can wait until they return to the lab and can properly sort and classify all they brought back.

I see a medieval guild of piece workers, producing things. Some things are OK, some not really, but you must produce the pieces, otherwise you'll starve and never make it from apprentice to the master. It would be, of course, very nice to craft a masterpiece, but if you can't a steady flow of adequate (as determined by your peers who are not exactly unbiased judges) pieces will be sufficient and the more the better.

Comment author: jimmy 13 November 2015 10:13:49PM *  0 points [-]

wouldn't that depend on how cool the shit it?

The point is that how "cool" something is is supposed to track the potential value there. In practice it doesn't always (carbon fiber decals are a thing), but that just means they're doing it wrong.

The hunter will proudly show you his collection of butterflies, all nicely pinned and displayed in proper boxes. Proper boxes are very important, dontcha know?

I'd find that very strange, but could happen. And if so, you can confirm your suspicion that they weren't getting anything interesting done. Still seems worth asking to me.

I have a feeling we have different images in mind.

It seems like you see me as implicitly asking "why do you guys keep making pieces instead of going on an adventure!?!?!" and answering with "you see epic adventure, but what they see is the necessity of making their pieces. If they didn't have to get their pieces made, and if there actually was epic adventure to have, of course they'd do that instead. It's that they don't agree with you".

I agree. That's why they do what they do - 'twas never a mystery to me. I see room for that and epic and lucrative anaconda fighting adventures. Or for fools chasing that fantasy and running off into the jungle to starve. Or all three and more.

I have a couple points here even before getting into what happens when you quit and seek adventure.

1) "you must produce the pieces". Really? You sure sure? What number do you put on that confidence? How you think you know?

Often people get caught up running from what seems like a "must" only for it to turn out to be not mission critical. Literal hunger makes for a perfect example. When people fast for a few days for the first time, it often really changes the way they think about the hunger signal. It's no longer "You must eat" and instead becomes more of just a suggestion.

2) "I'm not convinced adventuring is worth it". Of course not. You haven't done your research.

And from your mindset - if you really must produce the pieces, then you didn't need to. If I offer you a chance of a million dollars or a sure $500, but the mob is gonna kill you if you don't pay off your $500 debt, there's little point in asking what the chance is if you already know it isn't "all but guaranteed".

However, even if it's only a 15% chance, you're losing out on an expected $149,500. If there's any chance that 1) not producing the pieces isn't an immediate game ender or 2) it's not completely impossible to sell your chance for much more than $500, then you should probably at least ask what your chance of winning the million is before settling for $500.

So what I see is not "and adventure that is sure to pay off in excess and yeah it might be uncomfortable, but it's not like there's any real downside so don't be stupid", but rather "these people aren't being careful to consider their confidence levels when it's crucial, and so they are going to end up stuck as pieceworkers even if there's a way to have much much more"

Comment author: Lumifer 10 November 2015 08:34:02PM *  1 point [-]

If, on the other hand, you're pretty okay with saying "hey look, of course we don't know anything, that's why we're still in exploration mode, but look at all this cool shit we're sifting through!", then it starts to look a lot more appealing.

That, actually, depends on whether this cool shit is a stable pattern or just transient noise. Looking at cool-shit noise is fine as an aesthetic experience, but I wouldn't call it science (or "exploration mode" either).

And, of course, there is the issue of intellectual honesty: saying "we found this weird thing that looks curious" is different from saying "we have conclusively demonstrated a statistically significant at the 0.0X level result".

Personally, I'd rather fast for a few days then drag back a moose.

I suspect you'll go off chasing butterflies and will never get anywhere, if we're getting into hunter-gatherer metaphors.

Comment author: jimmy 12 November 2015 06:29:57AM 0 points [-]

Looking at cool-shit noise is fine as an aesthetic experience,

That's a terrible aesthetic experience. Your sense of aesthetics is supposed to do something

I suspect you'll go off chasing butterflies and will never get anywhere, if we're getting into hunter-gatherer metaphors.

That's a very reasonable thing to suspect. It's a less reasonable thing to take as given, especially considering the size of the prize and the ease of asking a hunter "ever killed anything?".

Comment author: ChristianKl 09 November 2015 11:51:11PM 1 point [-]

Science itself is about the search for finding knowledge and not about sifting through cool shit. I also consider it okay that our society has academic psychologists who attempt to build reliable knowledge.

I think it's worthwhile to have different communities of people persuing different strategies of knowledge generation.

Comment author: jimmy 10 November 2015 08:21:07PM 0 points [-]

I don't disagree with any of the statements you made, and none of them are required to be false for my point to be valid.

I'm kinda getting the impression that you aren't being very careful or charitable in your reading of my comments. Is that impression wrong?

Comment author: ChristianKl 09 November 2015 10:54:43AM 0 points [-]

Look at the state of pyschology today. They tried to replicate 100 findings. A third checked out. A third nearly checked out and another third didn't check out at all.

If you are a psychologists at the moment and get embarrased as a result, you want to move in a direction where more results replicate. Studying highly performing people like Steve Andreas could very well not help with that goal.

Comment author: jimmy 09 November 2015 09:43:48PM 0 points [-]

Right.

To me, that looks like a slightly different angle on the same thing. If you want to nail down some things so you can say "hey look, we know some things", then studying high performing people wouldn't be the way to go. If, on the other hand, you're pretty okay with saying "hey look, of course we don't know anything, that's why we're still in exploration mode, but look at all this cool shit we're sifting through!", then it starts to look a lot more appealing.

It certainly doesn't surprise me that this kind of research isn't being done, and I can empathize with that embarrassment and wanting to have something nailed down to show the nay sayers. I also find it rather unfortunate. It strikes me as eating the marshmallow. Personally, I'd rather fast for a few days then drag back a moose.

Comment author: ChristianKl 03 November 2015 10:52:18PM 0 points [-]

Personally, I wouldn't take Bandler very seriously because of the whole "narcissistic liar" thing and the fact that the one intervention of his I saw was thoroughly lacking in displayed skill (and noteworthy result), but yes, you should look at the experts, not at the undergrads handed a manual designed by the researcher who isn't an expert himself. It's much better to study "effectiveness of this expert", not "effectiveness of this technique". I'd just rather see someone like Steve Andreas studied.

A while ago I would have agreed, today I'm not sure whether that would go somewhere. I think you need researchers with both scientific skills and which actual abilities.

Part of the reason why I respect Danis Bois so much is that after he was successful at teaching bodywork he went and worked through the proper academic way because he found the spiritual community to dogmatic. He got a real PHD and then a professorship.

For hypnosis it likely would have to be similar. Someone who went deep into it. Who lives in the mental world of hypnosis and does 90%+ of his day to day communication in that mode but who then feels bad about the unscientific attitude of his community. A person who then starts a scientific career might really bring the field forward.

Comment author: jimmy 09 November 2015 04:56:59AM 0 points [-]

Yeah, I see the distinction you're getting at and completely agree. I was referring more to showing "hey, this can't be nonsense since somehow this guy actually gets results even though I have no idea what he's doing", which is an important step on its own, even if it's not scientific evidence behind individual teachable things.

Comment author: Jurily 03 November 2015 03:31:17PM 0 points [-]

I'm aware that Strugeon's law is in full effect within the NLP community, my questions were specifically about Bandler and his results.

I fail to see how anything you said has an impact on the observation that Andy did not need to return to the mental institute. Unless you dispute at least that single claim, the lack of research is better explained with the hypothesis that the researchers failed to understand the topic well enough to account for enough variables, like how Bandler almost always teaches NLP in the context of hypnosis.

If whatever Bandler does is producing verifiable results, shouldn't it be at least an explicit goal of science to find out why it works for him, as opposed to whether it works if you throw an NLP manual at an undergrad? Shouldn't it be a goal of science to find out how he came up with his techniques, and how to do that better than him?

Comment author: jimmy 03 November 2015 07:03:35PM 3 points [-]

If whatever Bandler does is producing verifiable results, shouldn't it be at least an explicit goal of science to find out why it works for him, as opposed to whether it works if you throw an NLP manual at an undergrad?

YES!

Personally, I wouldn't take Bandler very seriously because of the whole "narcissistic liar" thing and the fact that the one intervention of his I saw was thoroughly lacking in displayed skill (and noteworthy result), but yes, you should look at the experts, not at the undergrads handed a manual designed by the researcher who isn't an expert himself. It's much better to study "effectiveness of this expert", not "effectiveness of this technique". I'd just rather see someone like Steve Andreas studied.

I know from personal experience that even people with good intentions will strawman the shit out of you if you talk about this kind of thing because there's so much behind it that they just aren't gonna get. Ironically enough, Milton Erickson, the guy who Bandler modeled NLP after, allegedly had this exact complaint about NLP ("Bandler and Grinder think they have me in a nut shell, but all they have is a nutshell." )

Comment author: RichardKennaway 02 February 2015 12:06:37PM 0 points [-]

"terminally different" does not mean "it's hard enough to come to agreement that at least one party resorts to violence".

Killing your enemies is pretty terminal.

(Historical footnote for visitors from the future: "today's news" alluded to upthread refers to the Charlie Hebdo killings, a phrase which should be easily googleable for a long time to come.)

Comment author: jimmy 03 February 2015 11:11:53PM 0 points [-]

Sounds pretty obviously instrumental to me. "Why do you want to kill your enemies?" has pretty obvious answers. "so they won't kill me", "so I can take control of their resources", etc.

And if you take those away, perhaps by making them unable to harm you, finding a way to take their stuff without killing them, etc, how much do you expect people to still care about killing their enemies?

Comment author: Benito 17 January 2015 11:59:48PM *  6 points [-]

I see a few problems with this: if we try to assign beliefs and statements to people that aren't what they say they believe, but what we think they really believe or meant to say, then we will be biased to interpreting their beliefs and statements to be like the closest cliches we know, or closer towards ideas we take seriously. We might think they didn't mean X, because we think X is ridiculous, and when they protest that we've not responded directly, there'll be an impasse. They may even accuse you of deliberately misinterpreting what they've said. Also, if we respond to what people actually say, then there'll be an incentive for people to be clearer in their words, which seems a net positive. Fin

Interpreting words further than simply understanding what people actually say seems like it could be rife with errors. This doesn't mean it's not a useful skill, but I wouldn't make it my general strategy.

Comment author: jimmy 18 January 2015 07:06:37PM 2 points [-]

That's why its important to check for understanding if you're at all unsure. It's the ideological turing test thing.

View more: Prev | Next