Comment author: keefe 15 April 2012 09:02:04AM *  2 points [-]

statements that are ~50% true... this is actually pretty hard, mine some dataset for statistical info?

generally, I would look into RDF, (protege and topbraid composer free will let you poke around for free without knowing the data format)

US 2000 Census in RDF

Freebase has all manner of data in RDF

http://aws.amazon.com/publicdatasets/ public data sets, not all in RDF but "it's more important that the data have structure" and all that

cancer stats

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 14 April 2012 10:16:46AM 1 point [-]

Thanks for explanation. Now my model is that you consider carbon nanotubes very important technology for increasing computational power (more than many other hardware-related technologies), so they are also a very important component in calculating Singularity timeline. Makes sense, though I lack the knowledge necessary to discuss it.

I posted the most relevant abstract. If they spent some fairly large time writing that, why should I assume I can do better?

Because they were writing for a different audience -- for people who already know a lot of context.

Now it's your choice whether you want to discuss with an average LessWronger, in which case you should provide more content, or you want to discuss only with people who are experts in some area, which is completely legitimate, but perhaps you should state it more explicitly.

It is indeed kind of mean that I ask how this piece fits into everyone's puzzle without disclosing my puzzle, but I do worry about security and that sort of thing and this was a good experiment on how people would respond

That's good. I was hoping you will not get the impression that we are somehow biased against discussing singularity or carbon. :D

Comment author: keefe 14 April 2012 02:14:15PM 0 points [-]

I think it tends to be most useful to do things that support multiple different plans, so I had a lot of motives for putting this up here. I don't have a lot of time, so that's how I try to roll anyway...

Here is what my motivations were :

  • In general play with the site - I did a little bit of work on it in the summer of 2010 and I was talking about making a contribution again, so I wanted to play with the interface and understand the code better.

  • I enjoyed my time at singinst, but was one of the rare people that had never read lesswrong when I arrived there (having found the post on hacker news) so it was an effort to reach out to the community

  • I deliberately didn't write much about a topic that I have reason to believe should be interesting to this community, so it was a good level set for the community's tech level, curiosity and so forth. Definitely more open to stuff than the average forum, but was surprised, would have thought people would be all over this as a weird idea.

  • definitely not just looking for expert opinions, I do think CNTs are very important and I want to encourage you and everyone else to let your imagination run wild a bit and say what you think, if it's too dangerous to discuss fine, but I doubt most think that...

  • for experts that want to set me straight or point out some obvious reason these techs are not useful, let me know but since we are already using CNTs to replace thermal paste for heat sinks so can we do a full chip etc...

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 14 April 2012 12:48:49AM 2 points [-]

What kind of explanation are you looking for? Are you a physicist? Have you taken physics?

Assuming you know some things but aren't a condensed-matter physicist: 1) single-layered graphene's intrinsic scattering rate is extremely low, so nearly anything else that causes scattering is going to dominate. 2) it is an exceptionally poor screener of electric fields, due to the low density of states. 3) it is entirely surface, so there is no interior region to be unaffected by boundary effects (though graphene is usually in poor mechanical contact with the substrate, this loose coupling is not weak enough to strongly suppress surface phonon scattering). Note that 'the top side, away from the substrate' is not distinct - the relevant carrier electron states straddle the center plane.

So, what happens? You've got an electron in the electrical field, accelerating. It eventually scatters. What does it scatter off of? The substrate, mainly, by one mechanism or another. Whichever it is, some energy is dissipated directly into the substrate (that's what it bounced off of), and the electron bounces off in some other direction. This electron bounce is not heat - the electrical field just goes back to pushing it forward again, and it goes - very orderly except for the isolated scattering instances.

The main ways the graphene itself gets warmer are by a) a carrier electron does manage to scatter off of a graphene lattice phonon (this is a really weak process, but it happens, and when you get rid of the substrate it dominates) ; and b) phonons from the substrate are transmitted into the graphene lattice (this is also weak because graphene binds poorly to the substrates mechanically speaking, but it's not extremely weak).

That's the summary of what's going on. It applies equally to single-walled carbon nanotubes, and to a lesser extent, multi-layered graphene and multi-walled carbon nanotubes.

Comment author: keefe 14 April 2012 05:24:31AM 0 points [-]

Thank you or the well considered response, actually helpful. You have my background about right, I published in a physicists in medicine conference and have the normal background in comparch and whatever classes I took for my math double. Definitely not a condensed matter physicist, will have to read more on phonons.

The idea that this is a hollow tube and so there is no interior region to be effected does seem intuitive. The thing that jumped out at me is that the tube itself remained cool.

I don't have a good understanding of quantum electrodynamics or phonons and that is one reason I wanted to bring this up for discussion. Some types of scattering like bremsstrahlung seem like they play a role, but it doesn't seem to explain it, from the lead scientist:

""We believe that the nanotube's electrons are creating electrical fields due to the current, and the substrate's atoms are directly responding to those fields," Cumings explains. "The transfer of energy is taking place through these intermediaries, and not because the nanotube's electrons are bouncing off of the substrate's atoms. While there is some analogy to a microwave oven, the physics behind the two phenomena is actually very different."" http://newsdesk.umd.edu/scitech/release.cfm?ArticleID=2657

The normal mechanism for heating in electric current transmission as I understand it, the electrons are bouncing off other atoms causing them to vibrate. So we make a transistor or a wire and we a pass a current through it, the atoms inside get hotter and we then dissipate that heat. They don't appear to think this is what is going on here.

It seems like the electrons go through the nanotube wire and the energy kind of jumps from the current to the tube to the substrate it's laying on without accumulating much inside the wire itself.

They claim this is a weird game changer which every scientist wants to find, so either that's hype or it's legit. It seems like you have a good understanding, this is in a discussion area, what's your opinion, is this a big discovery that is going to lead to multilayer chips orders of magnitude faster or is it just a fluke thing?

Comment author: John_Maxwell_IV 02 April 2012 09:58:39PM 1 point [-]

I don't think the impact of writing my comment would've been significant, but I don't see any reason to make our situation worse on the margin.

Comment author: keefe 13 April 2012 08:07:25PM 1 point [-]

For you, posting about the fact that you decided not to post it reinforces the idea that you are important enough to have an impact with a blog post, which is more likely to reinforce the most common bias of intelligent people.

Comment author: pleeppleep 02 April 2012 07:56:41PM 2 points [-]

Not necessarily. We don't know what he was going to say, so we hardly have enough evidence to say it would be unhelpful. Also, while this forum doesn't necessarily have a lot of influence, there are many people who are mildly influential that like to peruse this site. Just the chance of inspiring such a person would likely have an impact on technological development. Not a significant one, but maybe enough to cancel out the contribution we have made by reading and considering this post.

Comment author: keefe 13 April 2012 08:02:41PM 2 points [-]

I think more helpful people than unhelpful people come here. I remember a friend in grad school who had someone publish an algo he had discovered in the journal issue 1 before his publication, halfway across the world. I think it's kind of like an avalanche, there is some sense to being quiet until you know enough to have a reasonable estimate of the impact of your action. As a rule though, I'd rather see ideas traded here than behind DARPA firewalls.

Comment author: Viliam_Bur 13 April 2012 02:51:42PM *  1 point [-]

My reaction: You have posted a link to some invention, without explaining why it is related to singularity more than any other random technical invention. Sure, there are three hyperlinks where I can get more information, but I would like to get some explanation from the article itself. Or maybe you just use "how does X advance singularity timelines?" as a synonym for "X is cool"; I don't know, and you didn't help me avoid this suspicion.

What would I like to find in articles like this? A short explanation of context (for people who know nothing about carbon nanotubes, which is not a typical LW topic), and explanation of why do you think this invention is exceptional (even when compared with hundred other inventions made and published in the same year). Something like this -- the following text is completely made up, just to better illustrate what I mean:

Estimates of Singularity timeline are often based on the Moore's law. However, in recent years the progress in computer speeds has slowed down. Computers are not getting faster anymore. Their increased power is mostly gained by adding more processor cores, which is not the same as making faster cores. Also the electric power consumption increases linearly with the number of cores, so even if in 2050 we get a computer capable of simulating a human brain, it would require more power than is produced by Sun. One possible solution is to avoid an integrated-circuit approach and build the computer directly, atom by atom. (Just like we got a thousandfold increase in capacity and speed by replacing vacuum tubes by integrated circuits in 1960s.) To make it possible, we need a material that is able to do -- blah blah blah -- but material with such properties is not known yet. However, recent experiments with carbon nanotubes suggest that they are similar to what we need. More details about physical properties of carbon nanotubes are here: [1], [2], [3].

Any you don't have to put "Singularity" in the name of the article. "Recent advances in carbon nanotubes research" would work fine.

Comment author: keefe 13 April 2012 07:36:16PM 0 points [-]

Or maybe you just use "how does X advance singularity timelines?"

Very much not this. I was a visiting fellow at singinst and discussed timelines with many people. I still feel some level of ethical obligation to provide a more complete analysis as I was actually converted to have some worry about this recursive self improvement, though I tend to worry more about IA than AI (even if just because of the IA-->AI path) I'm also poking a little bit at the LW codebase again and wanted to try to stimulate a discussion and explore the site. I was looking for actual discussion of the impact of this on people's timelines, how they are updating on this kind of evidence.

Any you don't have to put "Singularity" in the name of the article.

It's interesting to note that I put singularity and timelines plural, implying this trajectory towards "methusalarity" or whatever you want to call it. I linked the other article to show there is some evidence that this particular advance might very well unlock a lot of tech along a lot of interesting, rapidly accelerating change technologies.

A short explanation of context

I posted the most relevant abstract. If they spent some fairly large time writing that, why should I assume I can do better? If you check out the link, this was published in nature nanotech, so that is pretty big news. I linked to papers on tissue engineering, nanotech used internally. That's three pieces of a puzzle that we're all trying to get a better handle on.

Something like this

I think that's a good introductory description, but I thought people on this site already know all this. I think they know moore's law has stalled and that we're looking to increase it, that we're right on the cusp of the computational power required to search solution spaces near the human scale (watson, go ais, deep blue, etc)

So, what techs will change that space... carbon nanotubes and graphene wires are taken pretty seriously. If our mutual goal is to get ahead of this problem, it seems we should all take the time to do the basic reading and you come to certain concepts - heat dissipation, scaling out rather than up, 3D chips, transistor sizes, nanotechnology, graphene and carbon nanotubes, cloud computing, bot nets, cortical columns, human computer interface, neuronal destruction due to wire thickness and so forth.

It is indeed kind of mean that I ask how this piece fits into everyone's puzzle without disclosing my puzzle, but I do worry about security and that sort of thing and this was a good experiment on how people would respond, thank you for your insights, need to run back to code...

Comment author: keefe 13 April 2012 01:57:06PM 0 points [-]

Curious if people would be willing to articulate negative sentiment on this piece?

It seems like we should all see advancements like this as a way of training our intuition about how the tech tree will go and also make efforts to do outreach into important communities as they are growing. If graphene transistor and remote cooling cpus eclipse efforts in parallelism or biological computing, then researchers in that field have a lot of influence to spread to users as well as developers.

Also, to most people this is a highly counterintuitive phenomenon and some people I hung out with for a while used to talk a lot about the utility of physics intuition.

Some hypotheses for negative affect are that the story is not relevant or interesting (strong evidence this is not the case), that those people who have the technical expertise to discuss it don't want to discuss it off secure channels or...

Comment author: Manfred 11 April 2012 06:06:05PM 1 point [-]

The overall impact seems small to clock speeds, since it's speculative and there are several possible ways the same thing could be done. And the impact to clock speeds on singularity timelines is itself pretty small, since once you have working code, making it faster or raising money for more hardware seems like a much smaller problem.

Comment author: keefe 13 April 2012 01:50:51PM 0 points [-]

I think people underestimate the intrinsic computational complexity in solving even relatively simple pattern recognition tasks. There are also all sorts of algorithms where you do a heuristic search through some big space and it's particularly interesting to note that a lot of programs for finding proofs or optimizing code are in this class. Anybody who thinks computers today are fast doesn't write enough code.

I have an intuition this particular tech(or related) is going to advance us to the next exponentiating phase of a stacked sigmoid advancement curve that eventually leads to ai.

Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 12 April 2012 09:11:02PM 1 point [-]

It's interesting and I hadn't thought of it, but it's not weird. The losses are from coupling between the substrate and the carrier electrons, so it makes sense that the energy will go there.

Comment author: keefe 13 April 2012 01:46:04PM 0 points [-]

Would you talk more about the coupling between substrate and carrier electrons, that is not clear to me.

I mean it makes sense that it went somewhere nearby, but why would it transfer at all, only with these particular materials?

Why isn't it weird to you? If I got a lab report like that i'd be like ok, go ahead and rerun those experiments...

Comment author: Vaniver 11 April 2012 09:19:32PM *  1 point [-]

so the singularity by far is something after which we cannot predict how things are, but we're going to look at roughly similar cases for that?

The comparisons people generally make are to agriculture and industrialization.

I'm also an insider in this in the sense that I've been a professional software engineer for 16 years

Okay. Part of my academic background is physics, including nanoscale physics- but if anything, being half-educated about it makes me reluctant to speculate.

For example, there's a technology under development which would use nanotubes and van der Waals forces (if I remember correctly) to do binary memory on a scale that's a massive jump from what we have now- I think the claim was they could store a petabyte in the volume of a dime. If that works, that'll be huge- you could significantly change computer architecture with the ability to store abundant memory on the same chip as the CPU, for example. But I'm reluctant to bet that it'll work until it works.

Comment author: keefe 11 April 2012 10:03:03PM -1 points [-]

So if you have a background in nanotech and I have compsci, it seems like speculation could generate ideas.

I think that as a community interested in safety, it's important we keep informed about the advancement trajectory. Understanding limitations and capabilities of fundamental science advancements also provides intelligence on companies to watch for, tech that is likely available soon and so forth.

so, why not speculate? It's almost free to scan an idea for value.

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