Comment author: thomblake 25 July 2009 11:47:23PM -1 points [-]

I don't think that's very helpful. It doesn't seem to me that he as a very good grasp of what 'heresy' means, and you didn't explain what you meant by it in context.

Did you mean:

  • What you're doing is the modern-day equivalent to heresy (which I'd need explained)

  • What you're suggesting is something that could serve the same purpose of accusations of 'heresy' in past days

  • something else

Note that for literal readings, the modern-day equivalent of 'heresy' is 'heresy'. It still means the same thing and is used the same way by the Church.

Comment author: kess3r 26 July 2009 12:06:31AM 3 points [-]

By heresy I mean preemptively denouncing an idea because it doesn't adhere to some doctrine with no regard to whether the idea is true or false.

Comment author: thomblake 25 July 2009 11:41:40PM -1 points [-]

I think this amounts to modern day heresy.

I don't know what you mean by this. What's 'heresy' outside of a religious context, and why should we care?

Comment author: kess3r 25 July 2009 11:42:38PM 0 points [-]
Comment author: Alicorn 25 July 2009 11:02:32PM 0 points [-]

That seems like an acceptable gloss of the distinction, although there are probably fine-grained intuitions it won't cover.

Comment author: kess3r 25 July 2009 11:34:21PM 2 points [-]

I don't like this rule. I don't like rules that restrict truth seeking. I think this amounts to modern day heresy.

Comment author: Alicorn 25 July 2009 03:21:20PM 0 points [-]

I don't have an airtight definition handy, but it seems to me that (at least in the modern day in the developed world), religion is foolish, and (for instance) being a particular gender / race / etc. is not.

Comment author: kess3r 25 July 2009 04:04:58PM 0 points [-]

Hmmm. I can see a difference between religion and gender / race etc. So is the rule: "It's ok to offend a group if individuals have the option of belonging or not belonging to that group, but if individuals don't have such a choice, then it's not ok to offend them."?

Comment author: Alicorn 25 July 2009 03:57:01AM *  0 points [-]

You may offend people who do or believe foolish things, unless they meet the criteria for mental illness/retardation or you can avoid it without changing the substance of your claim.

Of course, there are some situations where the need not to offend an off-limits person or group must take the backseat to some greater need.

Comment author: kess3r 25 July 2009 02:26:03PM *  2 points [-]

"You may offend people who do or believe foolish things" How does one determine which acts and beliefs are foolish?

"Of course, there are some situations where the need not to offend an off-limits person or group must take the backseat to some greater need." What are these situations? Who are the off limits people? What is the greater need?

I'm not asking to annoy, I really want to know. I don't get it. Please explain.

Comment author: Alicorn 25 July 2009 12:26:04AM 1 point [-]

if its author's intended goal was to offend, rather than to seek truth.

False dichotomy. People can be offensive accidentally and/or ignorantly in the course of making all kinds of statements; it doesn't have to be either deliberate or a side feature of an attempt at seeking truth.

Comment author: kess3r 25 July 2009 03:22:22AM 5 points [-]

Indeed, people can be offensive accidentally and/or ignorantly. And yet, people can also be offensive while seeking truth. The offensive thing might not even be true, but to reach a conclusion either way, the offensive thing must be entertained as a hypothesis.

What if there was a hypothetical situation where the goal of seeking truth and the goal of not offending were at odds with each other such that one had to chose one or the other? Which goal is more important, truth seeking or non offense?

People have hinted that it depends on the situation. Pretend I'm an alien and and I know nothing of our society. How would you explain this to me? What algorithm is used to decide when it's ok and when it's not ok to offend? And on a related note, why is it ok to offend certain groups but not ok to offend other groups? Eg. It's ok to offend religious people but not ok to offend ...

Comment author: [deleted] 24 July 2009 04:24:53PM *  4 points [-]

Statements that are true, important to the development and practice of rationality, and lower a group's status should be said. Persons stumbling upon information of this nature would benefit from doing their best to present the information in a way that will sting the least for this group's status (post would be less controversial, would have to hear less distress calls). The more altruistic might consider how the community benefits from conscientiously proffered information.

A person who may have been offended despite all this will probably feel compelled to comment. I think it is important not to just be irritated at someone reacting this way, but to consider whether they have any valid point. Any time someone is offended by what we say, we may have an opportunity to learn how to prevent offense in the future (while still conveying the information accurately). In some cases, we might even learn we missed something and were wrong.

In response to comment by [deleted] on The Nature of Offense
Comment author: kess3r 24 July 2009 10:23:06PM *  3 points [-]

I have another question: Would statements of the type made by Lawernce Summers* be considered too offensive for LW or is discussion allowed?

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers#Differences_between_the_sexes

Comment author: SoullessAutomaton 23 July 2009 11:12:07PM 6 points [-]

There are a lot of offensive things that "happen to be true" that you don't say all the time.

Quick heavy-handed illustration:

You meet someone who was badly disfigured in an accident, let's say this guy, and after taking a look at him say "Holy shit, you're ugly!"

This is a completely true statement (being scalped by industrial machinery will do that), also rude and offensive, and has very little reason to need saying.

Comment author: kess3r 24 July 2009 01:48:25AM 3 points [-]

What about "everything that can be destroyed by the truth should be"? There might be an inconsistency between saying maximally true things and not offending people. What is the priority on LW?

On a somewhat related note, I can see it already. You spend years carefully programming your AI, calculating it's friendliness, making sure it is perfectly bayesian and perfectly honest. You are finally done. You turn it on and the first line it prints: Oh dear, you are quite ugly.

Comment author: thomblake 23 July 2009 09:40:00PM 5 points [-]

Suppose there is a statement that happens to be true, but which will also lower someone's or a group's status resulting in offence. Will you chose not to offend and keep the statement to yourself, or will you say it?

You haven't given enough information. There are a lot of offensive things that "happen to be true" that you don't say all the time. It being offensive is a good reason not to say it, but presumably you have in mind some reason to say it. One would need to evaluate that against the 'giving offense' to see which one wins.

Comment author: kess3r 23 July 2009 09:49:04PM 2 points [-]

Under which circumstances would 'saying true things' win and under which other circumstances 'not saying anything' would win? I would also add, under which circumstances would you 'say something you believe to be false' or 'agree with something you believe to be false' in order to avoid offense?

Comment author: kess3r 23 July 2009 09:34:34PM 4 points [-]

I have a small question, and this is an abstract question not specifically about any particular controversy on LW: -Suppose there is a statement that happens to be true, but which will also lower someone's or a group's status resulting in offence. Will you chose not to offend and keep the statement to yourself, or will you say it?

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