Comment author: kithpendragon 17 October 2016 12:51:35AM 3 points [-]

I wonder how my coworkers will do...

Comment author: kithpendragon 09 August 2016 03:04:14PM 0 points [-]

The most surprisingly useful thing I ever added to a workspace was actually a second screen. Even with a Virtual Desktop Manager, having a second (in this case, smaller) screen on one side allows for more modularity in my work environment. My workflow consists primarily of two different programs that give different access modes for the same database [1], and it is unutterably useful to be able to essentially fullscreen both of them.

Less surprising but far more useful: macros. I probably save myself 1-3 hours of tedium each workday by having automated many small, redundant tasks. I firmly assert that humans should never be forced to count anything that is presented on a computer screen. Data parsing isn't all that hard (even easier if the parser can access the database layer, not just a report), and there is simply no excuse for tech having never written these programs themselves!

[1] This is a terrible paradigm: I tend to think of them as "Look" and "Touch", and a fair number of my macros exist only to allow me to use the two in a more integrated way.

Comment author: kithpendragon 03 March 2016 10:10:28AM 1 point [-]

...any advancing civilization would likely begin developing AI. ... AI development is a natural step in the path of progress

This is a very strong claim to be making from a sample size of one.

Comment author: Lumifer 23 February 2016 05:55:48PM *  1 point [-]

Same way you know if other probabilistic prediction systems are "wrong"

I asked about a single forecast, not about a prediction system (for which, of course, it's possible to come up with various metrics of accuracy, etc.). Can the forecast of 70% chance of rain tomorrow be wrong, without the quotes? How could you tell without access to the underlying forecasting system?

but my suspicion is that there's something going on that we haven't yet learned to predict

So your position is that reality is entirely deterministic, there is no "probability" at all in the territory?

Comment author: kithpendragon 23 February 2016 09:14:04PM 0 points [-]

So your position is that reality is entirely deterministic, there is no "probability" at all in the territory?

I feel that is most likely, yes.

Comment author: Lumifer 23 February 2016 03:59:47PM 1 point [-]

The point was that the meteorologist is not "wrong" if it rains on a 30% chance

Well, is the forecast falsifiable, then? Can it be wrong? How would you know?

Probability is a quantitative expression of predictive uncertainty that exists within an informational system such as the human brain or, yes, weather prediction models.

So the probability exists purely in the map, but not in the territory? I am not sure quantum mechanics would agree.

Comment author: kithpendragon 23 February 2016 04:49:12PM 0 points [-]

Is the forecast falsifiable, then? Can it be wrong? How would you know?

Same way you know if other probabilistic prediction systems are "wrong": keep track of accurate and inaccurate predictions, weighted by confidence levels, and develop model of the system's reliability. Unreliable systems are probably "wrong" in some way. Individual predictions that express extreme confidence in an outcome that is not observed are "wrong". But I cannot recall having reason to accuse any meteorologists of either error. (Full disclosure: I don't care enough to make detailed records.)

I would also point out that the audience adds another level down the predictive rabbit hole. Weather forecasts usually predict for a large area. I've observed that weather can be significantly different between Hershey and Harrisburg in Pennsylvania. The two are less than a half-hour apart, and usually have identical forecast conditions. This further confounds the issue by adding the question of who is included in that 30% chance of rain. You could interpret it to mean a high degree of confidence that 30% of the forecast area will see rain. I have not seen an interview with a meteorologist that addressed that particular wrinkle.

So the probability exists purely in the map, but not in the territory? I am not sure quantum mechanics would agree.

Can't speak on quantum mechanics with much authority, but my suspicion is that there's something going on that we haven't yet learned to predict (or maybe don't have direct access to) on a quantum level. I seem to remember that quantum physics predicts more than [3 space + 1 time] dimensions. Since I don't appear to have access to these "extra" dimensions, it seems intuitive that I would be as ineffective at predicting events within them as Flatlanders would be at predicting a game of pool as seen from a single slice perpendicular to the table. They might be able to state a likelihood that (for example) the red circle would appear between times T1 and T2 and between points P1 and P2, but without a view of the plane parallel to the table and intersecting with the balls they would really only be making an educated guess. The uncertainty exists in my mind (as limited by my view), not in the game. I suspect something similar is likely true of Physics, though I'm aware that there are plenty of other theories competing with that one. The fact of multiple competing theories is, in itself, evidence that we are missing some important piece of information.

I expect time will tell.

Comment author: ChristianKl 23 February 2016 11:20:39AM -1 points [-]

I think most people would be perfectly able to understand: The temperature is going to be between 10 and 15 degrees instead of the temperature is going to be 12 degrees.

Then the metrologist can use whatever probability he considers to be appropriate.

Unfortunately, status quo bias seems to be dictating the outcome of that discussion

Yes, and the status quo is wrong. It's makes sense to say it's wrong. People in charge really do screw up by staying with the status quo. Making excuses for it doesn't help.

That's especially true today where I get my weather information from Google or from Windows. In both cases it would be easy to provide a UX interface that allows me to see proper statistics about the weather.

Google knows a lot about me. It could even guess that I want proper statistics.

Comment author: kithpendragon 23 February 2016 03:19:05PM 1 point [-]

The status quo is certainly wrong when it comes to the presentation of weather related data. The report is badly oversimplified due to several effects including the (over)estimated gap in understanding of statistics between meteorologists and the general public.

A 30% chance of precipitation is not, however, "wrong" if it does in fact rain. It merely expresses a fairly high degree of uncertainty in the claim "it will/won't rain today". The claim that such a report means the meteorologist was wrong (or somehow lying) is the subject of my complaint, not the format of the report itself (which I agree is abysmally deficient).

Comment author: Lumifer 23 February 2016 02:41:23AM 1 point [-]

It means that the proportion of meteorological models that predict rain to those that don't is 7:3

Yeah, that's an old joke, except it's told about meteorologists and not models.

But the question of "what a probability actually is" stands. You are not going to argue that it's a ratio of model outcomes, are you?

Comment author: kithpendragon 23 February 2016 03:05:32PM 0 points [-]

Perhaps I could have better phrased the complaint; I wasn't attempting to dive into the philosophical. The point was that the meteorologist is not "wrong" if it rains on a 30% chance or if the high temperature is off by a couple of degrees. Meteorologists deal with a lot of uncertainty (that they don't always communicate to us effectively). People need to understand that a 30% chance of rain only means that it likely won't rain (roughly 2:1 against). Still wouldn't hurt to take an umbrella.

As for the philosophical, I'd have to claim that a Probability is a quantitative expression of predictive uncertainty that exists within an informational system such as the human brain or, yes, weather prediction models. Come to think of it, that might actually be helpful for people to understand the weather report. I just don't trust my coworkers to be able to parse most of those words.

Comment author: ChristianKl 22 February 2016 10:48:21PM 1 point [-]

Unfortunately my weather forcast doesn't tell me it's between 10 and 15 degrees with 80% probability but the weather forcast for tomorrow is 12 degrees. As such it makes more sense to say it was wrong.

Comment author: kithpendragon 23 February 2016 01:22:10AM 0 points [-]

Certainly it is easier to say it was wrong. Meteorologists actually do see the error bars &c., then they dumb it down so most people can grasp what they're saying. I understand there is ongoing discussion as to what kind of balance is appropriate between being precise and being understandable. Unfortunately, status quo bias seems to be dictating the outcome of that discussion, and much of the information in meteorological models is never provided to the general public as a result.

Comment author: Lumifer 22 February 2016 10:16:01PM 2 points [-]

I'd like to see people have a clue what a probability actually is.

Heh. It isn't that simple.

What precisely does "There is a 70% chance of rain tomorrow" mean?

Comment author: kithpendragon 23 February 2016 01:13:16AM 0 points [-]

What precisely does "There is a 70% chance of rain tomorrow" mean?

It means that the proportion of meteorological models that predict rain to those that don't is 7:3. Take an umbrella. ;)

Comment author: kithpendragon 22 February 2016 08:54:04PM 0 points [-]

I'd like to see people have a clue what a probability actually is. I'm tired of hearing how the weather forecast was "wrong".

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