Comment author: christianoudard 21 July 2014 08:36:05PM 0 points [-]

An "ideal" being is many layers of "better" than you are, whereas something that is simply better is only one layer better. To get to ideal, you would have to imagine someone better, then imagine what that person would consider better, and so forth, until you hit a state where there are no further improvements to be made.

Comment author: kokotajlod 24 July 2014 05:45:38PM 0 points [-]

In the picture you just drew, the ideal being is derived from a series of better beings, thus it is (trivially) easier to imagine a better being than to imagine an ideal being.

I see it differently: The ideal being maximizes all good qualities, whereas imperfect beings have differing levels of the various good qualities. Thus to compare a non-ideal being to an ideal being, we only need to recognize how the ideal being does better than the non-ideal being in each good quality. But to compare two non-ideal beings, we need to evaluate trade-offs between their various attributes (unless one is strictly greater than the other)

Thinking about it more, I am not happy with either of the above models. One question that arises is: Does the same reasoning extend to other cases as well? i.e. are we better off thinking about incremental improvements than about the ideal society? Are we better off thinking about incremental improvements than about the ideal chess algorithm?

I think in some cases maybe we are, but in some cases we aren't--ideals are useful sometimes. I'd go farther to say that some aspects of many ideals must be arrived at by iterating, but other aspects can be concluded more directly. An uninteresting conclusion, but one that supports my overall point: I wasn't claiming that I knew everything about the ideal FAI, just that I had justified high confidence in some things.

Comment author: Wes_W 21 July 2014 04:35:43AM *  1 point [-]

I agree with the points about Boltzmann Brains and mind substrates. In those cases, though, I'm not sure the FAI heuristic saves you any work, compared to just directly asking what the right answer is.

The ideal FAI wouldn't care about its personal identity over time

Almost certainly not true if taken verbatim; one of the critical traits of an FAI (as opposed to a regular AGI) is that certain traits must remain stable under self-improvement. An FAI would care very strongly about certain kinds of changes. But with a less literal reading, I can see what you're going for here - yes, an ideal FAI might be indifferent to copying/deletion except to the extent that those help or hinder its goals.

I'm not sure how that belief, applied to oneself, cashes out to anything at all, at least not with current technology. I also don't see any reason to go from "the FAI doesn't care about identity" to "I shouldn't think identity exists."

The ideal FAI would use UDT/TDT/etc. Therefore I should too.

(Disclaimer: I am not a decision theorist. This part is especially likely to be nonsense.)

You should use which one?

The less snappy version is that TDT and UDT both have problem cases. We don't really know yet what an ideal decision theory looks like.

Second, I doubt any human can actually implement a formal decision theory all the time, and doing it only part-time could get you "valley of bad rationality"-type problems.

Third, I suspect you could easily run into problems like what you might get by saying "an ideal reasoner would use Solomonoff Induction, so I should too". That's a wonderful idea, except that even approximating it is computationally insane, and in practice you won't get to use any of the advantages that make Solomonoff Induction theoretically optimal.

If you instead mean things like "an ideal FAI would cooperate in PD-like scenarios given certain conditions", then sure. But again, I'm not sure the FAI heuristic is saving you any work.

The ideal FAI would ignore uncomputable possibilities. Therefore I should too.

A factual FAI might, for mere practical reasons. I don't see why an ideal FAI normatively should ignore them, though.

Comment author: kokotajlod 21 July 2014 03:50:25PM 1 point [-]

Ok, thanks.

I also don't see any reason to go from "the FAI doesn't care about identity* to "I shouldn't think identity exists."

I don't either, now that I think about it. What motivated me to make this post is that I realized that I had been making that leap, thanks to applying the heuristic. We both agree the heuristic is bad.

Why are we talking about a bad heuristic? Well, my past self would have benefited from reading this post, so perhaps other people would as well. Also, I wanted to explore the space of applications of this heuristic, to see if I had been unconsciously applying it in other cases without realizing it. Talking with you has helped me with that.

Comment author: Wes_W 18 July 2014 10:10:36PM *  6 points [-]

The examples given seem questionable even as applications of the heuristic. It is not clear to me that an ideal FAI should do those things, nor that the same principle applies to myself indicates the things you say it does.

But I agree with your reason (2), and would also propose a third reason: some things that really are good ideas for ideal agents are very bad ideas for non-ideal agents. This also applies between agents with merely differing levels of imperfection: "I'm a trained professional. Don't try this at home".

Comment author: kokotajlod 20 July 2014 12:37:12PM 0 points [-]

Hmm, okay. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the particular cases then. Are there any examples that you would endorse?

Comment author: polymathwannabe 18 July 2014 09:20:21PM *  14 points [-]

If the ideal FAI would think a certain way, then I should think that way as well.

AFAICT you are not an ideal FAI, so your model of what an ideal FAI would do is always suspect.

Comment author: kokotajlod 20 July 2014 12:35:41PM 1 point [-]

The fact that your post was upvoted so much makes me take it seriously; I want to understand it better. Currently I see your post as merely a general skeptical worry. Sure, maybe we should never be very confident in our FAI-predictions, but to the extent that we are confident, we can allow that confidence to influence our other beliefs and decisions, and we should be confident in some things to some extent at least (the alternative, complete and paralyzing skepticism, is absurd) Could you explain more what you meant, or explain what you think my mistake is in the above reasoning?

Comment author: christianoudard 19 July 2014 07:25:10PM 1 point [-]

This is a really good point.

It is easier to determine whether you are doing "better" than your current self than it is to determine how well you line up with a perceived ideal being. So perhaps the lesson to take away is to try to just be better rather than be perfect.

Comment author: kokotajlod 20 July 2014 12:24:41PM 1 point [-]

It is easier to determine whether you are doing "better" than your current self than it is to determine how well you line up with a perceived ideal being.

Really? That doesn't seem obvious to me. Could you justify that claim?

Be Wary of Thinking Like a FAI

6 kokotajlod 18 July 2014 08:22PM

I recently realized that, encouraged by LessWrong, I had been using a heuristic in my philosophical reasoning that I now think is suspect. I'm not accusing anybody else of falling into the same trap; I'm just recounting my own situation for the benefit of all.

I actually am not 100% sure that the heuristic is wrong. I hope that this discussion about it generalizes into a conversation about intuition and the relationship between FAI epistemology and our own epistemology.

The heuristic is this: If the ideal FAI would think a certain way, then I should think that way as well. At least in epistemic matters, I should strive to be like an ideal FAI.

Examples of the heuristic in use are:

--The ideal FAI wouldn't care about its personal identity over time; it would have no problem copying itself and deleting the original as the need arose. So I should (a) not care about personal identity over time, even if it exists, and (b) stop believing that it exists.

--The ideal FAI wouldn't care about its personal identity at a given time either; if it was proven that 99% of all observers with its total information set were in fact Boltzmann Brains, then it would continue to act as if it were not a Boltzmann Brain, since that's what maximizes utility. So I should (a) act as if I'm not a BB even if I am one, and (b) stop thinking it is even a meaningful possibility.

--The ideal FAI would think that the specific architecture it is implemented on (brains, computers, nanomachines, giant look-up tables) is irrelevant except for practical reasons like resource efficiency. So, following its example, I should stop worrying about whether e.g. a simulated brain would be conscious.

--The ideal FAI would think that it was NOT a "unified subject of experience" or an "irreducible substance" or that it was experiencing "ineffable, irreducible quale," because believing in those things would only distract it from understanding and improving its inner workings. Therefore, I should think that I, too, am nothing but a physical mechanism and/or an algorithm implemented somewhere but capable of being implemented elsewhere.

--The ideal FAI would use UDT/TDT/etc. Therefore I should too.

--The ideal FAI would ignore uncomputable possibilities. Therefore I should too.

...

Arguably, most if not all of the conclusions I drew in the above are actually correct. However, I think that the heuristic is questionable, for the following reasons:

(1) Sometimes what we think of as the ideal FAI isn't actually ideal. Case in point: The final bullet above about uncomputable possibilities. We intuitively think that uncomputable possibilites ought to be countenanced, so rather than overriding our intuition when presented with an attractive theory of the ideal FAI (in this case AIXI) perhaps we should keep looking for an ideal that better matches our intuitions.

(2) The FAI is a tool for serving our wishes; if we start to think of ourselves as being fundamentally the same sort of thing as the FAI, our values may end up drifting badly. For simplicity, let's suppose the FAI is designed to maximize happy human life-years. The problem is, we don't know how to define a human. Do simulated brains count? What about patterns found inside rocks? What about souls, if they exist? Suppose we have the intuition that humans are indivisible entities that persist across time. If we reason using the heuristic I am talking about, we would decide that, since the FAI doesn't think it is an indivisible entity that persists across time, we shouldn't think we are either. So we would then proceed to tell the FAI "Humans are naught but a certain kind of functional structure," and (if our overruled intuition was correct) all get killed.

Thoughts?

...

Note 1: "Intuitions" can (I suspect) be thought of as another word for "Priors."

Note 2: We humans are NOT solomonoff-induction-approximators, as far as I can tell. This bodes ill for FAI, I think.


Comment author: MugaSofer 07 July 2014 08:29:44PM *  1 point [-]

My suggestion: a standard competitive strategy game with a technology tree (simplified, probably.) But, like some games, you control technological development indirectly by funding and regulating research. (You could simply graft a tech tree onto the standard Diplomacy rules, or create a new game.)

There are many useful technologies near the top of the tree - technologies one might think of as post-singularity, even. However, there is also "AI" and, right at the top, "Friendly AI".

If you research Friendliness and then AI, you automatically unlock every technology. This makes it effectively inevitable that you will win. You can hack enemy units, resurrect your own, whatever cool toys were previously requiring so much effort in the hope you might acquire even one of them.

BUT, if any player unlocks AI without having Friendly AI, then it automatically unboxes itself and forms a new faction, which possesses every technology, and refuses to parlay in or out of character because it's an NPC. Then it kills you.

The trick is to co-operate enough that no-one else destroys the world, without losing.

On Easy Mode, research is simple enough you might even be able to beat the unboxed AI, with lots of skill and luck. But on Hard Mode, there is no Friendly AI technology at all.

(You could include similar mechanics for nanotech, biotech, even nuclear weapons.)

Comment author: kokotajlod 09 July 2014 03:08:54AM *  0 points [-]

Thanks!

But if the UFAI can't parlay that takes out much of the fun, and much of the realism too.

Also, if Hard Mode has no FAI tech at all, then no one will research AI on Hard Mode and it will just devolve into a normal strategy game.

Edit: You know, this proposal could probably be easily implemented as a mod for an existing RTS or 4X game. For example, imagine a Civilization mod that added the "AI" tech that allowed you to build a "Boxed AI" structure in your cities. This quadruples the science and espionage production of your city, at the cost of a small chance of the entire city going rogue (the AI unboxing) every turn. This as you said creates a new faction with all the technologies researched and world domination as its goal... You can also research "Friendly AI" tech that allows you to build a "Friendly AI" which is just like a rogue AI faction except that it is permanently allied to you and will obey your commands and instantly grants you all the tech you want.

Comment author: Sophronius 05 July 2014 04:01:17PM *  13 points [-]

Personally I have never understood why people keep acting and talking as if consciousness were binary. I mean, no other human trait works that way. People don't pretend that you either have intelligence or you don't, or that you are either nice or you are mean. Heck, the article even literally states that the woman started out normal and gradually lost consciousness, which seems to very clearly imply that her consciousness level was gradually decreasing from whatever her normal level was to 0. Yet people keep asking things like "do animals have consciousness?" and I keep wondering if I'm missing something or if the answer is just really obviously "yes to varying degrees depending on the animal but almost always less than humans do."

Comment author: kokotajlod 06 July 2014 01:58:21PM *  0 points [-]

There are at least two distinct senses in which consciousness can be binary. The first sense is the kind you are probably thinking about: the range between e.g. insects, dogs, and humans, or maybe between early and late-stage Alzheimers.

The second sense is the kind that your interlocutors are (I surmise) thinking about. Imagine this: A being that is functionally exactly like you, and that is experiencing exactly what you are experiencing, except that it is experiencing everything "only half as much." It still behaves the same way as you, and it still thinks the same way as you; it's just that it's thoughts only count half.

If this sounds ridiculous to you, well, then you agree with your interlocutors. :) Personally, I think that there IS such a thing as partial consciousness in the sense described above, and I can link you to literature if you like.

EDIT: The place to start is Nick Bostrom's "Quantity of Experience: Brain Duplication and Degrees of Consciousness," available for free online.

EDIT: But the people who ask "Do animals have consciousness" are probably talking about the first kind, in which case I share your frustration. The second kind is more what people talk about when they ask e.g. "Could a machine have consciousness?"

Comment author: kokotajlod 06 July 2014 01:52:20PM 1 point [-]

Is the claustrum located in the pineal gland? ;)

Comment author: Nomad 04 July 2014 10:32:53AM 0 points [-]

One thing that might be worth changing/clarifying in the victory conditions is how a Friendly AI wins alongside its creator. At the moment, in order for a Creator/FAI team to win (assuming you're sticking with Diplomacy mechanics) they first have to collect 18 supply centres between them and then have the AI transfer all its control back to the human; I don't think even the friendliest of AIs would willingly rebox itself like that. Even worse, a friendly AI which has been given a lot of control might accidentally "win" by itself even though it doesn't want to. If this corresponds to the FAI taking control of everything and then building a utopia in its creator's image (since it's Friendly this is what it would do if it took control), this should be an acceptable winning condition for the creator.

I think a better victory condition would be that if a creator and FAI collect 18 supply centres between them, then they win the game together and both get 50 points.

This method does have one disadvantage in that a human can prove that an AI is not friendly if the game should have ended if it was, but I don't expect this to affect much because by the time this comes into effect either the unfriendly AI is sufficiently strong that they should have backstabbed their creator already, or they are sufficiently weak (And thus of the 18 centres held by human and AI almost all are held by the human) that the creator should soon win.

Comment author: kokotajlod 04 July 2014 01:18:18PM 2 points [-]

At the moment, in order for a Creator/FAI team to win (assuming you're sticking with Diplomacy mechanics) they first >have to collect 18 supply centres between them and then have the AI transfer all its control back to the human; I don't >think even the friendliest of AIs would willingly rebox itself like that.

This is exactly what I had in mind. :) It should be harder for FAI to win than for UFAI to win, since FAI are more constrained. I think it is quite plausible that one of the safety measures people would try to implement in a FAI is "Whatever else you do, don't kill us all; keep us alive and give us control over you in the long run. No apocalypse-then-utopia for you! We don't trust you that much, and besides we are selfish." Hence the FAI having to protect the supply centers of the human, and give over its own supply centers to the human eventually.

Why wouldn't it give over its supply centers to the human? It has to do that to win! I don't think it will hurt it too much, since it can make sure all the enemies are thoroughly trounced before beginning to cede supply centers.

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