Comment author: JonahSinick 18 February 2015 08:34:54PM *  2 points [-]

Contrary data point here:

That's very interesting to me – thanks for sharing.

. When he says "exceptional" here, I think he means it in the ordinary sense of the word -- the sense relevant to most of the readers he's addressing -- which would include not only himself but also almost all of his UCLA colleagues (for example).

Thanks for pointing out a possible alternative explanation. Can you elaborate? I think that I might understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure. Are you saying that UCLA math professors would be considered to be exceptional mathematicians but not exceptionally intelligent? It's not clear to me that this is the case – you seem to be breaking symmetry by interpreting his two uses of 'exceptional' in different ways.

UCLA math professors are as a group more intelligent than UCLA math grad students, who are in turn as a group more intelligent than UCLA math majors. His remarks in the article that I linked suggests that he adheres to the threshold theory – that after a certain point intelligence doesn't yield incremental returns. I think that this is wrong whatever reference class one is using.

Comment author: komponisto 19 February 2015 01:08:58AM 3 points [-]

Can you elaborate? I think that I might understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure. Are you saying that UCLA math professors would be considered to be exceptional mathematicians but not exceptionally intelligent?

I think what Tao means is something like: among the total population of those intelligent enough to eventually become senior faculty at a UCLA-level department, variables other than intelligence are much better predictors of (the binary variable of) whether a given individual achieves (at least) that level of status (as opposed to, say, the level of more typical state universities).

This is not inconsistent with intelligence being the best predictor of Tao-like status conditional upon UCLA-level status. In terms of intelligence, ordinary universities might contain a large percentage of could-have-been-UCLA's even if UCLA-level places contain only a small number of could-have-been-Tao's.

I also suspect you and Tao (or at least, his public "voice" as reflected in his writings) may disagree somewhat about the relative contribution to mathematics of Tao-level and merely-UCLA-level mathematicians.

Comment author: Epictetus 18 February 2015 02:22:40PM 2 points [-]

As Carl Linderholm pointed out, pattern-matching questions more properly belong to the field of parapsychology--he restricted his discussion to guessing the next number in a sequence, but the result can be readily generalized.

Satire aside, it seems to me that these Raven matrices get a lot easier to figure out once you've seen a few. At first glance I couldn't make heads or tails of the one you provided, but I went and took an online Raven matrix test and afterward that one seemed straightforward enough (in the sense that I quickly found a rule that was consistent with the rest of the matrix and produced one of the possible options). Presumably the easier ones familiarized me with the sorts of patterns the examiners were wont to use and reuse.

It's not entirely clear to me how somebody as mathematically talented as Tao could miss the basic Bayesian probabilistic argument that Scott Alexander gave, which shows that Tao's own existence is very strong evidence against his claim. But two hypotheses come to mind.

This reminds me of the Grothendieck quote from the previous article: "Yet it is not these gifts, nor the most determined ambition combined with irresistible will-power, that enables one to surmount the "invisible yet formidable boundaries " that encircle our universe." Both Grothendieck and Tao appear to discount pure intellect in favor of something less tangible when it comes to doing truly great mathematics. It's possible that they happened to encounter some exceptionally intelligent mathematicians who never managed to produce exceptional mathematics. On the other hand, it would be worth asking how many (if any) great mathematicians had high but non-exceptional intelligence.

Comment author: komponisto 18 February 2015 08:08:30PM 2 points [-]

On the other hand, it would be worth asking how many (if any) great mathematicians had high but non-exceptional intelligence

Some of my candidates (who, perhaps not coincidentally, also happen to be among my "favorite" old-time mathematicians, in the sense of stylistic identification):

  • Hilbert
  • Weierstrass
  • Lie
  • Cantor
  • Noether

All of these violate (what I think of as) the "math genius" stereotype in some way. None of these were considered child prodigies; in many cases they took up mathematics relatively late (Lie), had some competing interest (Cantor), or stood in contrast to a prodigy they knew (Hilbert, the prodigy being Minkowski).

Expanding the scope to physicists (and in the category of "widely held cultural beliefs that are probably wrong"), I will also nominate:

  • Einstein

whom I suspect of possessing significantly less Tao-style ability, and being more akin to the above-listed mathematicians, than is commonly assumed.

Comment author: komponisto 18 February 2015 08:06:17PM 3 points [-]

Very interesting, thanks!

I'll have more to say about the role of verbal reasoning ability in math later on

When you do, I hope you'll mention Paul Halmos, one of my favorite mathematicians (and the author, among many other things, of Naive Set Theory, which is on the MIRI reading list), who famously began his autobiography with the sentence "I like words more than numbers, and I always did."

People who are able to pick the correct choice at all can usually do so within 2 minutes – the questions have the character "either you see it or you don't."

Contrary data point here: I eventually figured out the "correct" answer (in the sense of the answer that everyone else came up with), but it took me something like 15-20 minutes (including interruptions by various distractions, such as reading subsequent paragraphs -- which I'm glad I did, because it allowed me to discover that the test was untimed, which is what gave me the confidence to try to figure it out!).

A reasonable amount of intelligence is certainly a necessary (though not sufficient) condition to be a reasonable mathematician. But an exceptional amount of intelligence has almost no bearing on whether one is an exceptional mathematician.

It's not entirely clear to me how somebody as mathematically talented as Tao could miss the basic Bayesian probabilistic argument that Scott Alexander gave, which shows that Tao's own existence is very strong evidence against his claim.

I think this is uncharitable to Tao. When he says "exceptional" here, I think he means it in the ordinary sense of the word -- the sense relevant to most of the readers he's addressing -- which would include not only himself but also almost all of his UCLA colleagues (for example).

Comment author: Manfred 16 February 2015 07:32:22AM *  3 points [-]

When you say "The heliocentric view had only a single advantage against the geocentric one: it could describe the motion of the planets by a much simper formula," you falsely do it a service, because you overstate the practical differences. Galileo was no Kepler - he didn't have improved observational accuracy. The Copernican model and the Tychonic model (adopted by the Catholic church only a decade and change before Galileo published the Dialogue) make basically the same predictions for planetary movement.

This means the really interesting lie is "The geocentric view had a very simple explanation, dating back to Aristotle: it is the nature of all objects that they strive towards the center of the world, and the center of the spherical Earth is the center of the world. The heliocentric theory couldn't counter this argument." Because Galileo's answer is what this was really about! If Tycho Brahe was right, Earth was made of a lazy type of matter, which desired to be at rest and fall down, while the heavens followed an entirely different set of rules that demanded perpetual motion. But if Galileo was right, an object in motion would stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force, whether on earth or in the heavens.

After 1610 or so, if one had a decent understanding of astronomy, one accepted that Ptolemy was wrong and that heliocentrism was now not about overthrowing the Greeks' astronomy, but their mechanics. Who was right? Was it Aristotle and Brahe? Or was it Descartes and Galileo? Of course, the discussion would have been a lot more interesting if the church hadn't started banning the books of one side after they declared heliocentrism heretical, but oh well.

Comment author: komponisto 17 February 2015 10:28:09AM 0 points [-]

This is a very insightful comment -- in the sense of making something "click" for me that hadn't done so before. Namely:

After 1610 or so, if one had a decent understanding of astronomy, one accepted that Ptolemy was wrong and that heliocentrism was now not about overthrowing the Greeks' astronomy, but their mechanics

So, thank you.

(Cf. Douglas Knight's comment, which also implies that Galilean relativity was central to the argument.)

Comment author: 27chaos 13 February 2015 04:04:12AM *  2 points [-]

I've noticed in courses I taught that grades tend to reward conscientious students who can "play the game" and do formal manipulations even if they don't really understand what's going on.

Calculus 2 is where I hit the limits of my conceptual abilities. I am very bad at "playing the game" in this way, so I haven't moved beyond that yet.

I think it's wrong to put too much emphasis on a contrast between "playing the game" and "understanding the material", though. My feeling is that if I became better at playing games, paying attention to detail, being more conscientious about my work, then I would also improve my conceptual understanding after a while.

Comment author: komponisto 13 February 2015 07:24:17AM *  19 points [-]

My feeling is that if I became better at playing games, paying attention to detail, being more conscientious about my work, then I would also improve my conceptual understanding after a while.

Indeed, the mathematical profession itself relies on this for the training of its members, because it doesn't know how to train conceptual understanding directly -- as described candidly by Ravi Vakil:

[Y]ou'll go to talks, and hear various words, whose definitions you're not so sure about. At some point you'll be able to make a sentence using those words; you won't know what the words mean, but you'll know the sentence is correct. You'll also be able to ask a question using those words. You still won't know what the words mean, but you'll know the question is interesting, and you'll want to know the answer. Then later on, you'll learn what the words mean more precisely, and your sense of how they fit together will make that learning much easier. The reason for this phenomenon is that mathematics is so rich and infinite that it is impossible to learn it systematically, and if you wait to master one topic before moving on to the next, you'll never get anywhere. Instead, you'll have tendrils of knowledge extending far from your comfort zone. Then you can later backfill from these tendrils, and extend your comfort zone; this is much easier to do than learning "forwards". (Caution: this backfilling is necessary. There can be a temptation to learn lots of fancy words and to use them in fancy sentences without being able to say precisely what you mean. You should feel free to do that, but you should always feel a pang of guilt when you do.)

I seem to be unusual (among people attracted to advanced mathematics, but perhaps not so much in the LW cluster) in being mostly unable to tolerate such an approach.

Comment author: komponisto 12 February 2015 08:00:42AM 7 points [-]

I'm extremely grateful for this post, and look forward to the rest of the sequence.

For me this is also of great personal relevance -- I too am among the "twice exceptional" (*), and am chagrined that this concept, as the Wikipedia article says, "has only recently entered educators' lexicon". You won't be surprised to know that (as I think we've even discussed before privately) Grothendieck's description of himself -- and his mathematical style, insofar as I understand it -- is also something that I identify with very strongly.

(*) illustrative anecdote: in 9th grade, I received a "D" in geometry during the same term that I won a state competition in that subject.

Comment author: Liron 10 February 2015 12:17:02AM -1 points [-]

I don't know Latin so I'm guessing "lecture" is Latin for "lost purpose"? That's great, thanks for educating me.

Comment author: komponisto 10 February 2015 12:23:11AM 1 point [-]

It's Latin for "reading".

Comment author: komponisto 27 October 2014 08:43:08PM 30 points [-]

Taken.

Comment author: gjm 14 October 2014 10:27:21PM 0 points [-]

I personally have no problem with that -- but komponisto wants to make more detailed distinctions, and was originally (i.e., at the other end of the link in the great-grandparent of this comment) responding to someone else who wanted to count courses currently in progress as well as ones already completed.

I'm sure both of them have reasons (indeed, it's not hard to guess some) and I bet they're both aware that it's usual simply to ask for highest qualification actually attained.

Comment author: komponisto 17 October 2014 02:08:34AM 1 point [-]

Kalium's suggestion would in fact satisfy me -- it captures the distinction between someone who went to college/graduate school but didn't finish and someone who never went in the first place.

I disagree with your comment above that

the distinction between "started work on degree X, but abandoned it" and "currently working towards degree X" is almost as large as that between either of those and "never attempted degree X.

For a completely hypothetical example, let

A = someone with a B.A. who spent 6 years in a Ph.D. program and left without finishing

B = someone with a B.A. currently in a Ph.D. program who hasn't finished yet

C = someone who completed a Ph.D

and

D = someone with a B.A. who never entered a Ph.D. program..

My view is that there should be some notion of "education level" that clusters together A,B, and C, as distinct from D; but "highest degree attained" clusters A,B, and D as distinct from C, and your proposal seems to put A, D in one cluster and B, C in another.

Comment author: komponisto 13 October 2014 09:38:51AM 8 points [-]

I shall repeat my request for a second question under "Degree" that asks about one's highest degree attempted or in progress.

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