Comment author: [deleted] 18 February 2012 07:48:10AM *  2 points [-]

The "legal system" is concerned, above all else, that citizens regard its workings as legitimate, The appearance of inevitability promotes the sense of legitimacy, and any procedures that appear arbitrary interfere with it. Thus, the law would exclude all "hearsay within hearsay" before it would impose a three-level limit. Statistical evidence might show that three levels is optimal (or that some other cutoff is), but the provision's artificiality is patent. "I was treated unjustly because my evidence consisted of four levels of hearsay" sounds unjust because "arbitrary" limitations denude the law of evidence of the sense that it's natural.

Comment author: mark_spottswood 22 February 2012 01:58:36PM 0 points [-]

That critique might sound good in theory, but I think it falls flat in practice. Hearsay is a rule with more than 30 exceptions, many of which seem quite technical and arbitrary. But I have seen no evidence that the public views legal systems that employ this sort of convoluted hearsay regime as less legitimate than legal systems that take a more naturalistic, Benthamite approach.

In practice, even laypeople who are participating in trials don't really see the doctrine that lies beneath the surface of evidentiary rulings, so I doubt they form their judgments of the system's legitimacy based on such details.

Comment author: mark_spottswood 21 February 2012 07:19:56PM *  4 points [-]

A few comments:

  1. It is somewhat confusing (at least to legal readers) that you use legal terms in non-standard ways. Conflating confrontation with hearsay issues is confusing because making people available for cross-examination solves the confrontation problem but not always the hearsay one.

  2. I like your emphasis on the filtering function of evidentiary rules. Keep in mind, however, that these rules have little effect in bench trials (which are more common than jury trials in state courts of general jurisdiction). And relatively few cases reach trial at all; more are disposed of by pretrial motions or by settlements. (For some data, you could check out this paper by Marc Galanter.) So this filtering process is only rarely applied in real-world cases!

  3. Before suggesting that we should exclude evidence of low reliability, you should probably take more time to think about substitution effects. If lawyers cannot use multiply embedded hearsay, what will juries hear instead? Also, you would want to establish that juries would systematically err in their use of such evidence. It is not a problem to have unreliable evidence come in if juries in fact recognize its unreliability.

  4. I've recently spent some time thinking about how we might apply the scientific method towards designing better rules of legal procedure and evidence. It turns out to be trickier than you might think, largely because it is hard to measure the impact of legal rules on the accuracy of case resolutions. If you are curious about such things (and with apologies for blatant self promotion), you might want to read some of what I wrote here, particularly parts 2-4.

Comment author: mark_spottswood 20 March 2009 02:01:11PM 6 points [-]

Good points.

This may be why very smart folks often find themselves unable to commit to an actual view on disputed topics, despite being better informed than most of those who do take sides. When attending to informed debates, we hear a chorus of disagreement, but very little overt agreement. And we are wired to conduct a head count of proponents and opponents before deciding whether an idea is credible. Someone who can see the flaws in the popular arguments, and who sees lots of unpopular expert ideas but few ideas that informed people agree on, may give up looking for the right answer.

The problem is that smart people don't give much credit to informed expressions of agreement when parceling out status. The heroic falsfier, or the proposer of the great new idea, get all the glory.

Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky 18 March 2009 06:22:07PM 2 points [-]

The suggestions from the second paragraph all seem rather incestuous. Propagating trust is great but it should flow from a trustworthy fountain. Those designated "experts" need some non-incestuous test as their foundation (a la your first paragraph).

Comment author: mark_spottswood 18 March 2009 07:30:19PM 4 points [-]

Internal credibility is of little use when we want to compare the credentials of experts in widely differing fields. But is is useful if we want to know whether someone is trusted in their own field. Now suppose that we have enough information about a field to decide that good work in that field generally deserves some of our trust (even if the field's practices fall short of the ideal). By tracking internal credibility, we have picked out useful sources of information.

Note too that this method could be useful if we think a field is epistemically rotten. If someone is especially trusted by literary theorists, we might want to downgrade our trust in them, solely on that basis.

So the two inquiries complement each other: We want to be able to grade different institutions and fields on the basis of overall trustworthiness, and then pick out particularly good experts from within those fields we trust in general.

p.s. Peer review and citation counting are probably incestuous, but I don't think the charge makes sense in the expert witness evaluation context.

Comment author: Cameron_Taylor 18 March 2009 02:53:03AM 2 points [-]

Experts don't just tell us facts; they also offer recommendations as to how to solve individual or social problems. We can often rely on the recommendations even if we don't understand the underlying analysis, so long as we have picked good experts to rely on.

There is a key right there. Ability in rational thinking and understanding of common biasses can drastically impact who we consider as a good expert. The most obvious examples are 'experts' in medicine and economics. I suggest that the most influential experts in those fields are not those with the most accurate understanding.

Rationalist training could be expected to improve our judgement when choosing experts.

Comment author: mark_spottswood 18 March 2009 03:20:14PM 1 point [-]

True. But it is still easier in many cases to pick good experts than to independently assess the validity of expert conclusions. So we might make more overall epistemic advances by a twin focus: (1) Disseminate the techniques for selecting reliable experts, and (2) Design, implement and operate institutions that are better at finding the truth.

Note also that your concern can also be addressed as one subset of institutional design questions: How should we reform fields such as medicine or economics so that influence will better track true expertise?

In response to Rational Me or We?
Comment author: Z_M_Davis 17 March 2009 06:16:17PM 11 points [-]

One problem with trusting the experts rather than trying to think things through for yourself is that you need a certain amount of expertise just to understand what the experts are saying. The experts might be able to tell you that "all symmetric matrices are orthonormally diagonalizable," and you might have perfect trust in them, but without a lot of personal study and inquiry, the mere words don't help you very much.

Comment author: mark_spottswood 17 March 2009 08:53:49PM 4 points [-]

Experts don't just tell us facts; they also offer recommendations as to how to solve individual or social problems. We can often rely on the recommendations even if we don't understand the underlying analysis, so long as we have picked good experts to rely on.

In response to Rational Me or We?
Comment author: Sideways 17 March 2009 06:26:22PM 29 points [-]

Robin Hanson has identified a breakdown in the metaphor of rationality as martial art: skillful violence can be more or less entirely deferred to specialists, but rationality is one of the things that everyone should know how to do, even if specialists do it better. Even though paramedics are better trained and equipped than civilians at the scene of a heart attack, a CPR-trained bystander can do more to save the life of the victim due to the paramedics' response time. Prediction markets are great for governments, corporations, or communities, but if an individual's personal life has gotten bad enough to need the help of a professional rationalist, a little training in "cartography" could have nipped the problem in the bud.

To put it another way, thinking rationally is something I want to do, not have done for me. I would bet that Robin Hanson, and indeed most people, respect the opinions of others in proportion to the extent that they are rational. So the individual impulse toward learning to be less wrong is not only a path to winning, but a basic value of a rationalist community.

Comment author: mark_spottswood 17 March 2009 08:51:10PM 8 points [-]

One can think that individuals can profit from being more rational, while also thinking that improving our social epistemic systems or participating in them actively will do more to increase our welfare than focusing on increasing individual rationality.

Comment author: RobinHanson 17 March 2009 02:44:54PM 5 points [-]

The legal system does supposedly encourage individual bias to aggregate evidence; I'm more of a skeptic about how well it actually does this in practice though.

Comment author: mark_spottswood 17 March 2009 02:51:42PM 1 point [-]

Care to explain the basis for your skepticism?

Interestingly, there may be a way to test this question, at least partially. Most legal systems have procedures in place to allow judgments to be revisited upon the discovery of new evidence that was not previously available. There are many procedural complications in making cross-national comparisons, but it would be interesting to compare the rate at which such motions are granted in systems that are more adversarially driven versus more inquisitorial systems (in which a neutral magistrate has more control over the collection of evidence).

In response to Rational Me or We?
Comment author: James_Miller 17 March 2009 02:18:05PM 5 points [-]

We should learn how to identify trustworthy experts. Is there some general way, or do you have to rely on specific rules for each category of knowledge?

Two examples of rules are never trust someone's advice about which specific stocks you should buy unless the advisor has material non-public information, and be extremely skeptical of statistical evidence presented in Women Studies' journals. Although both rules are probably true you obviously couldn't trust financial advisers or Women Studies' professors to give them to you.

Comment author: mark_spottswood 17 March 2009 02:26:25PM *  2 points [-]

Obviously it helps if the experts are required to make predictions that are scoreable. Over time, we could examine both the track records of individual experts and entire disciplines in correctly predicting outcomes. Ideally, we would want to test these predictions against those made by non-experts, to see how much value the expertise is actually adding.

Another proposal, which I raised on a previous comment thread, is to collect third-party credibility assessments in centralized databases. We could collect the rates at which expert witnesses are permitted to testify at trial and the rate at which their conclusions are accepted or rejected by courts, for instance. We could similarly track the frequency with which authors have their articles accepted or rejected by journals engaged in blind peer-review (although if the review is less than truly blind, the data might be a better indication of status than of expertise, to the degree the two are not correlated). Finally, citation counts could serve as a weak proxy for trustworthiness, to the degree the citations are from recognized experts and indicate approval.

In response to Rational Me or We?
Comment author: mark_spottswood 17 March 2009 02:08:23PM 5 points [-]

Another good example is the legal system. Individually it serves many participants poorly on a truth-seeking level; it encourages them to commit strongly to an initial position and make only those arguments that advance their cases, while doing everything they can to conceal their cases' flaws short of explicit misrepresentation. They are rewarded for winning, whether or not their position is correct. On the other hand, this set-up (in combined with modern liberalized disclosure rules) works fairly well as a way of aggregating all the relevant evidence and arguments before a decisionmaker. And that decisionmaker is subject to strong social pressures not to seek to affiliate with the biased parties. Finally, in many instances the decisionmaker must provide specific reasons for rejecting the parties' evidence and arguments, and make this reasoning available for public scrutiny.

The system, in short, works by encouraging individual bias in service of greater systemic rationality.

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