Comment author: prase 06 January 2013 12:05:33PM *  1 point [-]

If infinite sets and brutely distinguishable elements exist, infinite sets with brutely distinguishable elements should exist.

Why? It doesn't follow. (As a trivial case, imagine that there are only two brutely distinguishable things in the world.) (Assuming that by "infinite sets with brutely distinguishable elements" you mean "set with infinitely many b.d. elements".)

Also, you say that sets are distinguishable whenever there is a predicate which applies to one and doesn't apply to another. That is, X and Y are distinguishable iff for some P, P(X) and not P(Y). Right?

But then you argue as if the only allowed predicates were those about cardinality. To closely follow your example, let's denote X = "the former set containing infinitely many b.d. points" and Y = "the latter set containing all those points plus the additional one which 'popped into existence'". Then we have a predicate P(Z) = "Z is a subset of X", and P(X) holds while P(Y) doesn't. What's wrong here?

Are my aesthetics off? [...] Perhaps its a status thing, as the research journals don't use it.

Your aesthetics are incompatible with most of the readers. You've got quite a lot of negative responses to your formatting, not a single positive response (correct me if I am wrong), yet you still persist and speculate about status reasons. Even if it were true, I'd suggest taking the readers' preferences more seriously, if you want the readers take you more seriously.

To me, coloured text really doesn't seem more legible than bold or italics. Moreover I like when a website has a unified colour scheme which your colours break. All violations of local arbitrary design norms are distracting; the posts aren't art, therefore aesthetics shouldn't trump practical considerations. But if you really that much insist on using colours for emphasis (but consider there may be colourblind people reading this), please at least use the same font and background colour as everybody else.

Comment author: metaphysicist 06 January 2013 09:30:37PM *  0 points [-]

You've got quite a lot of negative responses to your formatting, not a single positive response (correct me if I am wrong), yet you still persist and speculate about status reasons.

I just found it curious: I've addressed typography issues in a blog posting, "Emphasis by Typography."

I have to say I'm surprised by your tone; like you're accusing me of some form of immorality for not being attentive to readers. This all strikes me as very curious. I read Hanson's blog and so have gotten attuned to status issues. I'm not plotting a revolution over font choice; I'm only curious about why people find Verdana objectionable just because other postings use a different font.

If infinite sets and brutely distinguishable elements exist, infinite sets with brutely distinguishable elements should exist. Why? It doesn't follow.

The argument concerns conceptual possibility, not empirical existence. If actually existing sets can consist of brutely distinguishable elements and of infinite elements, there's nothing to stop it conceptually from being both.

You have located a place for a counter-argument: supplying the conceptual basis. But it seems unlikely that a conceptual argument would successfully undermine brutely distinguishable infinite elements without undermining brutely distinguishable elements in general.

Then we have a predicate P(Z) = "Z is a subset of X", and P(X) holds while P(Y) doesn't. What's wrong here?

You can distinguish the cardinality of finite sets with brutely distinguishable points. That is, if a set contains 7 points, you can know there are seven different points, and that's all you can know about them.

Comment author: prase 04 January 2013 07:28:08PM *  3 points [-]

First, I second the other's requests to define "exist".

Second, I don't understand the arguments.

But the identity of indistinguishables does apply to sets: indistinguishable sets are identical. Properties determine sets, so you can’t define a proper subset of brutely distinguishable things.

"Let A and B be brutely distinguishable points. Define the sets M and N as M = {A, B} and N = {B}. N is a proper subset of M."

What I have done wrong in the preceding quotation? It seems like something a mathematician could easily say.

To show that the existence of an actually existing infinite set leads to contradiction, assume the existence of an infinite set of brutely distinguishable points. Now another point pops into existence. The former and latter sets are indistinguishable, yet they aren’t identical. The proviso that the points themselves are indistinguishable allows the sets to be different yet indistinguishable when they’re infinite, proving they can’t be infinite.

  1. You say that the points are brutely distinguishable and later you say that they are indistinguishable, which nevertheless you hold to be different properties.
  2. Why are the sets indistinguishable? Although I don't particularly understand what predicates you allow for brutely distinguishable entities, it seems possible to have X = set of all brutely distinguishable points (from some class) and Y = set of all brutely distinguishable points except one. It is, of course, not a definition of Y unless you point out which of the points is missing (which you presumably can't), but even if you don't have a definition of Y, Y may still exist and be distinguishable from X by the property that X contains all the points while Y doesn't.
  3. If the argument were true, haven't you just shown only that you can't define an infinite set of brutely distinguishable entities, rather than that infinite sets can't be defined at all?
  4. What is your opinion about the set of all natural numbers? Is it finite or can't it be defined?
  5. And how does the argument depend on infiniteness, after all? Assume there is a class of eleven brutely distinguishable points. Now, can you define a set containing seven of them? If you can't, since there is no property to distinguish those seven from the remaining four, doesn't it equally well prove that sets of cardinality seven don't exist?

The frequency of heads and of tails is then infinite, so the relative frequency is undefined.

The frequentist definition of probability says that probability is the limit of relative frequencies, which is the limit of (the number of occurrences divided by the number of trials), which is not equal to (limit of the number of occurences) divided by (limit of the number of trials). Note the positions of the brackets.

The sequence {2n/n} = {2/1, 4/2, 6/3, 8/4, ... } = {2, 2, 2, ...} has an obvious well defined limit, even if the limits of both {2n} and {n} are infinite.

A note about formatting: consider not copying a text from a word processor or a web browser directly to the LW post editor. The editor is "smart" and recognises the original font size and type and grey background color and whatever else and imports it to the post, which therefore looks ugly. I'd suggest copying to a Notepad/gedit-style editor first which kills the formatting and then to LW. (And emphasis is usually marked by italics, not red.)

Comment author: metaphysicist 06 January 2013 01:39:50AM 0 points [-]

Thank your for the astute response.

1.You say that the points are brutely distinguishable and later you say that they are indistinguishable, which nevertheless you hold to be different properties.

The points are brutely distinguishable, but the sets aren't.

2.Why are the sets indistinguishable? Although I don't particularly understand what predicates you allow for brutely distinguishable entities, it seems possible to have X = set of all brutely distinguishable points (from some class) and Y = set of all brutely distinguishable points except one. It is, of course, not a definition of Y unless you point out which of the points is missing (which you presumably can't), but even if you don't have a definition of Y, Y may still exist and be distinguishable from X by the property that X contains all the points while Y doesn't.

No predicates besides brute distinguishability govern it. Entities that are brutely distinguishable are different only by virtue of being different.

The sets that differ but for one element differ because their cardinality is different. This is how they differ from the infinite case.

3.If the argument were true, haven't you just shown only that you can't define an infinite set of brutely distinguishable entities, rather than that infinite sets can't be defined at all?

If infinite sets and brutely distinguishable elements exist, infinite sets with brutely distinguishable elements should exist.

4.What is your opinion about the set of all natural numbers? Is it finite or can't it be defined?

It is infinite, but it isn't "actually realized." (They don't exist; we employ them as useful fictions.)

  1. And how does the argument depend on infiniteness, after all? Assume there is a class of eleven brutely distinguishable points. Now, can you define a set containing seven of them? If you can't, since there is no property to distinguish those seven from the remaining four, doesn't it equally well prove that sets of cardinality seven don't exist?

To make the cases parallel (which I hope doesn't miss the point): take 7 brutely distinguishable points; 4 more pop into existence. The former and latter sets are distinguishable by their cardinality. When the sets are infinite, the cardinality is identical.

The frequentist definition of probability says that probability is the limit of relative frequencies, which is the limit of (the number of occurrences divided by the number of trials), which is not equal to (limit of the number of occurrences) divided by (limit of the number of trials).

This doesn't seem relevant to actually realized infinities, since the limit becomes inclusive rather than exclusive (of infinity). The relative frequency of heads to tails with an actually existing infinity of tosses is undefined. (Or would you contend it is .5?)

And emphasis is usually marked by italics, not red.

Are my aesthetics off? I've decided that unbolded red is best for emphasizing text sentences, the reason being that it is more legible than bolding, centainly than italics. If you don't use many pictures or diagrams, I think helps maintain interest to include some color whenever you can justify it.

Color seems increasingly used in textbooks. Perhaps its a status thing, as the research journals don't use it. But blog writing should usually be more succinct than research-journal writing, and this makes typographical emphasis more valuable because there's less opportunity to imply emphasis textually.

Comment author: [deleted] 04 January 2013 02:13:29AM 2 points [-]

As an abstract entity, infinity has been quite useful in describing the real world. Perhaps the question would be easier to answer if it were rephrased with "exist" tabooed.

Comment author: metaphysicist 05 January 2013 10:06:33PM 0 points [-]

What makes you think there's some equivocation in my usage of "exists"? (Which is where taboo is useful.) If I were pushing the boundaries of the concept, that would be one thing. I'm not taking any position on whether abstract entities exist; what I mean by exist is straightforward. If the universe has existed for an infinite amount of time, the infinity is "actually realized," that is, infinite duration is more than an abstract entity or an idealization. If I say, the universe is terribly old, so old we can approximate it by regarding it as infinitely old, then I am not making a claim about the actual realization of infinity.

Comment author: shminux 03 January 2013 09:34:17PM *  11 points [-]

Seems like yet another confusion about the definition of "exist", which you conveniently don't give.

If you rephrase it as "Can infinite quantities be observed?" then the answer is negative. If you phrase it as "Can models with infinities in them fit the observations better then those without?", then the answer is affirmative. If you are interested in a metaphysical answer, such as "Do numbers exist?", then you have to be clear in what you mean by each term.

Comment author: metaphysicist 05 January 2013 09:56:34PM 0 points [-]

some quite smart people disagree on the meaning of this term

We have an apparently very deep philosophical difference here. Some "quite smart people" have offered different accounts of existence: Quine's, that we are committed to the existence of those variables we quantify over in our best theory, comes to mind. My use of "exists" is ordinary enough that most any reasonable account will serve. I think the intuition of "existence" is really extremely clear, and we argue about accounts, not concepts. Existence is very simple

Maybe addressing your specific examples will clarify. "Can infinite quantities be observed?" as a meaning of existing. Clearly doesn't mean the same thing. Whether something exists or it can be observed are two different questions, existence being a necessary but insufficient condition for observability. "Can models with infinities in them fit the observations better than those without?" Still not existence. There are instrumentalist models and realist models. (Realists will agree; some intrumentalists will consider all theory instrumental, but that's another question.) There's a difference between saying something predicts the data and saying that the model describes reality (what exists) even if the latter claim is justified by the former. "Do numbers exist?" There the dispute isn't about existence but about numbers, and it's only because we do have a clear intuition of "existence" that the question about numbers can arise. So, we get different theories about numbers, which imply that numbers exist or don't.

So, even when it comes to numbers, I don't think there's much problem with the concept of existence. Sometimes one sees an unphilosophical tendency to treat problems regarding concepts as though they could be resolved by a mere choice of definition. Such flaws so easily corrected rarely arise in sophisticated thought. The question here is whether our intuition of existence implies that only the finite can exist. In analyzing an intuition, it rarely helps to start with a definition.

Comment author: ygert 03 January 2013 09:43:49PM *  7 points [-]

Sorry, but I do not think this is a well written article. The formatting is strange and hard to read, and your points meander a lot. You also need to give coherent summaries a lot more. As written now, your post is hard to read, and I can't quite tell what points you are really trying to convey. Please take this as constructive criticism, and work to make your post better.

Comment author: metaphysicist 03 January 2013 10:02:12PM -1 points [-]

Thank you for the criticism. I will indeed consider it. It may be that we have different theories of writing. Regarding our likely differences considering how to write, see my "Plain-talk writing: The new literary obfuscation."

I don't see how it can be accused of meandering. I'd be pleased to receive a personal note explaining.

Comment author: shminux 03 January 2013 09:34:17PM *  11 points [-]

Seems like yet another confusion about the definition of "exist", which you conveniently don't give.

If you rephrase it as "Can infinite quantities be observed?" then the answer is negative. If you phrase it as "Can models with infinities in them fit the observations better then those without?", then the answer is affirmative. If you are interested in a metaphysical answer, such as "Do numbers exist?", then you have to be clear in what you mean by each term.

Comment author: metaphysicist 03 January 2013 09:56:53PM -7 points [-]

Something's got to be primitive, and I can't think of a candidate better than existence.

Comment author: Kawoomba 03 January 2013 09:15:42PM 7 points [-]

Reminds me of another question I read recently: "Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?" I may have better luck parsing your post if you chose to work on its formatting. Feedback you've received on LW in the past, to little avail. Avast! (?)

I'm also not sure about your apparently new concept of "brute distinguishability", my only association is "et tu, brute?" which of course is historically inaccurate.

Comment author: metaphysicist 03 January 2013 09:56:06PM -1 points [-]

If you're not sure of the "brute distinguishability" concept, I've conveyed something, because it is the main novelty in my argument.

Comment author: t-E 05 October 2012 04:31:39PM 1 point [-]

(during the eridu radical-feminist debacle)

I don't know that 'debacle' and there seems to be a lot of content that could be part of it (you meant something in the comments of this same article apparently). If you think it is very relevant, i'd be grateful for one or several specific links to start from.

allowed me to notice that it seems highly likely that nearly all female feminists I've encountered in person with common knowledge of such were mostly of the kind that had one or few strong very bad near-type personal experiences with men, or many small but memorable such near-type experiences.

Where can i find out what "near-type" means here? This appears important enough to postpone my reply to this part.

because if the contrary were true, the feminist movement as a whole would be spectacularly self-hindering and shooting itself in the foot constantly, since such behavior as I've observed would basically cause very destructive conflict and wouldn't actually help further their goals.

I didn't mean it in that way. And i think the feminist movement, as a whole or in part, doesn't necessarily want to be lightly told by men what behaviour is or is not "furthering their goals" =P

(This instance seems to me like one in which you did so lightly, because it didn't seem highly relevant / on-topic.)

Comment author: metaphysicist 05 October 2012 04:51:33PM 7 points [-]

Where can i find out what "near-type" means here?

It refers to "near-mode," which is jargon in construal-level theory for "construed concretely." So in context, it means direct and involving personal experience, as opposed to reading or discussing abstractly.

Robin Hanson applies construal-level theory speculatively in numerous posts at Overcoming Bias. A concise summary of construal-level theory can be found in my posting "Construal-level theory: Matching linguistic register to the case's granularity.".

Comment author: TheOtherDave 28 September 2012 09:06:50PM 0 points [-]

Well, using pragmatist's cited definition of correspondence theory, a proposition is true if and only if it bears some sort of congruence relation to a state of affairs that obtains.

What state of affairs is "correspondence theory is true" congruent with?

I can't think of any.

If you can, I'll happily be convinced my argument doesn't hold, but basically it seems to me that correspondence theory lays out a framework for thinking about truth, just as governmental constitutions lay out a framework for thinking about law. Correspondence theory itself is no more true (or false) than constitutions are legal (or illegal).

Comment author: metaphysicist 29 September 2012 02:07:09AM 1 point [-]

What state of affairs is "correspondence theory is true" congruent with?

The concept of scientific truth--the concept used by scientists--is the state of affairs some correspondence theories purport to be congruent with.

Comment author: TheOtherDave 27 September 2012 09:58:19PM 0 points [-]

If correspondence theory is true, you aren't allowed to use the Piercian limit. It's a vacuous concept.

(blink) If I accept acorrespondence theory of truth, it seems that correspondence theory is not the sort of thing that is allowed to have a truth value. And if I reject a correspondence theory of truth, then I ought not believe that correspondence theory is true. So it seems that "correspondence theory is true" is necessarily false. No?

Comment author: metaphysicist 28 September 2012 08:53:49PM 1 point [-]

That's an excellent argument if it's the case that correspondence theory is not the sort of thing allowed to have truth values under correspondence theory. Why do you say it's not?

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