Comment author: Oscar_Cunningham 24 August 2010 10:47:39AM 2 points [-]

If there is a (physical) cause for qualia, such that qualia occur if and only if that cause is present, and we work out what that cause is, then we have an empirical test for subjective conciousness.

I wouldn't call that, "extremely unlikely".

Comment author: nawitus 24 August 2010 11:44:48AM *  0 points [-]

Yet qualia cannot be measured empirically (atleast that's the consensus), which makes such tests extremely unlikely. And this discussion seems to turn into a regular qualia debate. I'm not sure if that's desirable.

Comment author: cousin_it 24 August 2010 09:13:53AM *  9 points [-]

The first dubious statement in the post seems to be this:

Because the experience of consciousness is subjective, we can never “know for sure” that an entity is actually experiencing consciousness.

How can you make such a statement about the entire future of science? A couple quotes:

"We may determine their forms, their distances, their bulk and their motions, but we can never know anything about their chemical and mineralogical structure" - Auguste Comte talking about stars in 1835

"Heavier than air flying machines are impossible" - Lord Kelvin, 1895

The second dubious statement comes right after the first:

However there must be certain computational functions that must be accomplished for consciousness to be experienced.

The same question applies: how on Earth do you know that? Where's your evidence? Sharing opinions only gets us so far!

And it just goes downhill from there.

Comment author: nawitus 24 August 2010 10:39:56AM 0 points [-]

He is probably talking about the hard problem of consciousness, e.g. whether qualia exists. While it's possible conceptually to have empirical tests for subjective consciousness, it's seems extremely unlikely.

We can already imagine a computational simulation of the brain, and empirical test for qualia seems impossible pretty much by definition. Sure, it's possible to test whether the simulation has self-awareness from a computational point (and it will have that since it's a human brain simulation).

Comment author: Unknowns 24 August 2010 06:22:47AM 6 points [-]

Good first approximation: don't write posts about consciousness, if you don't want to be downvoted.

Comment author: nawitus 24 August 2010 10:23:09AM 3 points [-]

There should be some kind of "read this first before talking about consciousness" post which would atleast provide some definitions so articles about consciousness would be comprehensive.

Comment author: [deleted] 24 August 2010 08:14:02AM 0 points [-]

How about: consciousness is a sensory input that senses the brains own internal state and of which the brain makes use in the same way as it's other senses.

Comment author: nawitus 24 August 2010 09:20:54AM 0 points [-]

Consciousness actually means a number of different things, so any one definition will make discussion problematic. There really should be a number of different definitions for qualia/subjective consciousness, empirical consciousness etc.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 12 August 2010 04:26:24PM 0 points [-]

If you don't know the argument it's irrational to call it wrong.

Your conclusion is wrong, therefore the argument must be wrong as well.

Comment author: nawitus 12 August 2010 06:21:28PM -1 points [-]

And you don't provide any arguments for your claim either..

Okay, here's one: Even with time-continuos self, humans value other people, even though they personally experience anything other peope do. There's some (moral) value in other persons. Maybe people value themselves more, but that's not even relevant to the argument. So, if time-continuos self doesn't exist, people will value their future selfs as much as any other persons, which is atleast more than nothing.

Of course, this assumes that such a person does value other people. May not apply to every single person.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 12 August 2010 08:23:35AM -1 points [-]

Example of what? You didn't give your argument, only conclusion. I only guessed that this argument, whatever it is, will more visibly crumble in the case I suggested.

Comment author: nawitus 12 August 2010 02:15:47PM -1 points [-]

Eh. If you don't know the argument it's irrational to call it wrong. I didn't really argue anything, I just made an observation for those people who possibly believe that time-continuos self is required for morality.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 11 August 2010 06:22:56PM *  1 point [-]

Wrong. To see the error, try applying the argument to structures other than people.

Comment author: nawitus 11 August 2010 09:55:06PM 1 point [-]

Care to give an example then?

Comment author: cousin_it 11 August 2010 05:19:53PM *  5 points [-]

I'm gonna pull a Nesov on this one and say that belief in a time-continuous self can be thought of as a value/preference rather than belief. You care about your individual organism because evolution made you care about it, not because it is physically real (whatever that means).

Of course, similar reasoning can be used to show that observed particle physics is a Darwinian construct :-) Last I talked with Nesov about it, this was a big puzzle. Any news?

Comment author: nawitus 11 August 2010 05:39:23PM 0 points [-]

The lack of belief in a time-continuos self would give the same moral value to yourself as to other people, but wouldn't eliminate caring about yourself altogether.

Comment author: nawitus 11 August 2010 03:27:34PM 4 points [-]

According to these definitions, it could be instrumentally rational to be religious for some subset of people, but not epimestically rational.

Comment author: XiXiDu 08 August 2010 07:38:22PM 13 points [-]

LW database download?

I was wondering if it would be a good idea to offer a download of LW or at least the sequences and Wiki. In the manner that Wikipedia is providing it.

The idea behind it is to have a redundant backup in case of some catastrophe, for example if the same happens to EY that happened to John C. Wright. It could also provide the option to read LW offline.

Comment author: nawitus 08 August 2010 09:15:43PM 2 points [-]

You can use the wget program like this: 'wget -m lesswrong.com'. A database download would be easier on the servers though.

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