Comment author: Luke_A_Somers 26 January 2012 04:24:46PM 4 points [-]

It isn't equivalent. Grooming isn't simply being nice and complimenting and trying to get close. It's also about isolating the target and eliminating their ability to perceive their escape options.

That's not okay, to put it mildly.

Comment author: notmyrealnick 26 January 2012 08:52:46PM 5 points [-]

In the cases where that happens, you are right, it is not okay. Is that universal, though? Like I mentioned in my other reply, I looked at wikipedia's entry about grooming before making my comment, and it did not mention isolating the child.

The entry could just be deficient, of course.

Comment author: [deleted] 26 January 2012 03:50:56PM *  4 points [-]

Did you actually read the abstract dbaupp just linked to?

All sex offenders had received in-hospital treatment for six months to one year and were mostly non-defensive about various forms of enticement, exploitation or entrapment, including threats of harm, used to elicit eroticized responses from female children. A sizable number of incest (61%) and pedophilic offenders (58%) confided they felt powerful and in control. One third of men in each group relied on some element of gratuitous violence (e.g., pushing, grabbing, shoving or spanking) to force compliance from unwilling children.

I'd call that a pretty healthy falsification of "trust."

Comment author: notmyrealnick 26 January 2012 08:47:03PM *  5 points [-]

I did, and if you will note, it does not define such behaviors to be a part of grooming, but rather only says that many (not all) pedophiles have engaged in them. Such behaviors are obviously wrong and I am not defending them. I was specifically talking about the cases where no physical coercion is used, since those are the cases that the whole discussion was about. Cases where children were coerced are wrong and condemnable, but also irrelevant, since the discussion is about sex that the children consented to.

Also, because the abstract was somewhat unclear on whether it considered such behaviors a necessary part of grooming or not, I looked at wikipedia before writing my comment. Wikipedia's definition says that grooming refers to "actions deliberately undertaken with the aim of befriending and establishing an emotional connection with a child, in order to lower the child's inhibitions" and generally describes actions which would be considered positive if not for their intent. Giving gifts, for example. "Hugging and kissing or other physical contact, even when the child does not want it, can happen", was the only thing even hinting of coercion that was mentioned.

Wikipedia can obviously be wrong and is not an authoritative source, but since neither the article nor the linked abstract implied that coercion or violence would be a necessary part of grooming, I felt justified in posting my comment.

Comment author: dbaupp 26 January 2012 07:49:12AM 5 points [-]

How can they be wrong about consenting?

Manipulation. Children are prone to manipulation by figures they trust. So they have belief-in-consent, not actual consent.

From the abstract of this paper:

The findings point to the slow, but deliberate, 'grooming process' used by men who erotically prefer children as sex partners over mature adults

Comment author: notmyrealnick 26 January 2012 10:19:59AM 6 points [-]

If sexual consent achieved by manipulation is equivalent to rape, does that imply that pick-up artists are rapists?

Spending time building up a relationship of trust and liking with a person that you want to have sex with is called "dating" and considered normal when it is in the context of two adults. The same activity is called "grooming" and considered horrendous manipulation when it is in the context of an adult and a child. Just because trust has been built up on purpose does not make consent founded on that trust false.

Comment author: Raemon 26 January 2012 06:46:42AM *  7 points [-]

Edit: Nvm, there's a reason we generally think these threads are a bad idea.

Short answer: if a child thinks they're consenting, they're likely enough to be wrong (with great enough consequences) that the expected value is negative. Much more importantly: if an adult thinks a child is consenting, the adult is likely to be wrong (they'll have a hard time between telling the difference between actual consent and consent that is feigned out of fear).

Is consent hypothetically possible? Yes. But you're running on corrupted hardware and the expected value will usually be negative.

Comment author: notmyrealnick 26 January 2012 10:08:34AM 6 points [-]
Comment author: PeterS 16 July 2009 05:54:31PM *  0 points [-]

some generous interpretation of "very likely", or something else?

What I mean, roughly, is that if you raised in Western or Eastern Europe, any of the Americas, the Middle East, Asia or Africa, then you probably grew up under some abusive mode of childrearing (childrearing is much more advanced in the Nordic countries). The socializing mode is the most popular these days, although intrusive parenting can also be fairly common too depending on the region.

Try The History of Child Abuse if you're interested.

Does your support for the first hinge on a strict definition of abuse,

Read up on the basic archetypal childrearing modes (infanticidal, abandoning, ambivalent, intrusive, socializing, and helping) for a better idea of what I mean by abuse. You can find information about them in the above link, and even the wikipedia article isn't too bad.

Comment author: notmyrealnick 17 July 2009 03:34:49PM *  4 points [-]

I am sceptical of some of the points in the linked text as well. The author mentions that there are cultures in which parents masturbate their children, but that isn't obviously harmful. Yes, an example was cited where the masturbation in question was done in a harmful and painful way, but that isn't to say that it must always be so. Young children have been documented to occasionaly masturbate even on their own, so why is it that adults helping is immeaditly abuse? And citing

"co-sleeping," with parents physically embracing the child, often continues until the child is ten or fifteen

as an example of "abuse" is getting us into the ludicrous territory. Embracing your child is abuse! The author also makes pretty big leaps of correlation and causation:

Boys in many New Guinea groups today, for instance, are so traumatized by the early erotic experiences, neglect and assaults on their bodies that they need to prove their masculinity when they grow up and become fierce warriors and cannibals, with a third of them dying in raids and wars.

Of course, there are also plenty of valid points about real sexual abuse that does take place, or has historically taken place.

In response to Closet survey #1
Comment author: notmyrealnick 14 March 2009 12:22:08PM *  67 points [-]

I don't know if I actually believe this, but I've heard reports that cause me to assign a non-neglible probability on the chance that sexual relations with between children and adults aren't necessarily as harmful as they may seem. For instance, see the Rind et al. report:

"Child Sexual Abuse does not cause intense harm on a pervasive basis regardless of gender." Simplified, Rind et al. (1998) found that 3 out of every 100 individuals in a CSA population had clinically significant problems (compared to 2 out of every 100 in a general population).

Rind et al. contended that the degree of psychological damage was based on whether the child describes the encounter as consensual or not.

Similarly, I've heard second-hand accounts about people who report that they actually had loving relationships with pedophiles as kids. That didn't traumatize them, but the follow-up "psychological care", where the psychiatrists automatically assumed that the experience must have been horrible, did.

It would seem reasonable, on the face of it. There's no automatic reason for why we should assume sexual relations with children must automatically be harmful and unpleasant to the kids, if not for the cached thought of all sexual relations being abuse. And in the current political climate, just about nobody will have the courage to voice such an opinion in public, so studies such as these should carry extra weight.