Comment author: Strilanc 16 February 2014 07:48:33AM *  0 points [-]

I subvocalize. Can't turn it off.

I can change the voice, though. Some phrases are hard to not read in someone else's voice, like I tend to want to hear Feynman when I see "interesting" because I really like the way he says it.

Comment author: ntroPi 16 February 2014 07:58:36AM 0 points [-]

For everyone who thinks he can't change the voice: Picture

Comment author: gjm 15 February 2014 08:25:32PM 2 points [-]

I'm sorry that you didn't like my comment.

My intention was to get a point across. I thought that anyone who read my comment, didn't find its meaning clear, and was interested enough that they'd have bothered to read a longer and more explicit one would probably also be willing to read the thing I linked to, and that they might find it interesting if they did.

(Being terse plainly hasn't, in fact, decreased the amount of effort I've had to expend.)

Comment author: ntroPi 15 February 2014 09:57:25PM *  -1 points [-]

I actually read the article due to your post and it was interesting. I agree to your point, just didn't like the style and I could have been more diplomatic about it.

Keep posting. :-)

Comment author: gjm 15 February 2014 08:18:30PM *  0 points [-]

Doesn't seem crazy. I'd have to give it more thought before deciding whether it's likely to be an improvement. (Not that it particularly matters whether I think it's likely to be an improvement!)

But mass-downvoting would still be an abuse of the system and make karma less informative. Better to make it go away, if possible, either by preventing it or by disincentivizing it.

[EDITED to add: I mean "and make the scores of posts and comments less informative".]

Comment author: ntroPi 15 February 2014 09:38:08PM 0 points [-]

I don't think prevention is very likely as EYs comment suggests that moderator intervention will be very hard or even impossible, so disincentivizing is probably the way. I hope my suggestions would remove a motivation for mass downvoting by making it impossible to attack someones karma.

Comment author: gjm 14 February 2014 07:40:11PM 2 points [-]

I certainly don't assume that any particular reader has read all the sequences (nor that they should). I don't think it's so unreasonable to suggest reading one particular not-so-long post -- whose title might give the game away to a sufficiently quick-witted reader without even needing to follow the link.

Comment author: ntroPi 15 February 2014 06:21:01PM *  -2 points [-]

This is decreasing your work in commenting by increasing the work for some readers. It would be globally more useful to spend one minute on a better comment like the one Viliam_Bur has posted, than having an unknown number of people read the linked article to understand your point.

Your utility function and opinion may differ though, perhaps your intention was not primarily to get a point across but to make people read the article?

Comment author: gjm 14 February 2014 09:14:41AM 14 points [-]

Downvotes (plus a mechanism for making heavily-downvoted things less prominent, which LW has) provide protection against spammers and trolls.

Downvotes provide a non-cluttering way of indicating when a particular kind of comment (e.g., low-value template-y attempts at humour, which if not discouraged are apt to start taking over everything) are not appreciated by the community.

Downvotes provide a signal to people who simply aren't able or willing to make a positive contribution that they might do better to go elsewhere. Perhaps this last one is some of the motivation behind some or all mass-downvoting, but what evidence I have suggests that it's often done to people whose contribution is obviously positive to anyone who isn't so politicized that they see the mere presence of someone who thinks differently from them as a threat.

Comment author: ntroPi 15 February 2014 05:26:30PM 1 point [-]

A less extreme modification of the karma system would be to keep the downvotes but change how karma is calculated for the users.

Karma could be defined as the sum of all votes of posts with positive total score. An alternative change would be to count only the upvotes and ignore downvotes completely for the karma calculation.

In both cases the general correlation between users that post great content and high karma would stay intact but mass downvoting would no longer feel as threatening. All the signaling benefits you mentioned would still work in this modified system.

Do you think these are acceptable changes to the karma system?

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 14 February 2014 05:53:00PM 0 points [-]

Having to read the "majority of the sequences" is still an extreme distortion. It's enough to have a look at the (single) linked post.

Comment author: ntroPi 14 February 2014 06:00:28PM 0 points [-]

Yes I replied too fast to your comment. Already Fixed.

Comment author: Desrtopa 14 February 2014 05:46:36PM 1 point [-]

"Society" doesn't make decisions, groups of people make decisions. If every individual in the group understands how to avoid natural pitfalls, how to coordinate decisionmaking processes, how to take on board information from viewpoints which conflict with their own and incorporate what's useful rather than throwing it out wholecloth, etc, then the collective decisionmaking ability of the group is improved.

Your project could benefit from increased obedience as you could just lead rationally and the others would follow. Disagreements between rational people can take a longer time to resolve, etc

The projects I participated in could have benefited from increased group obedience, if everyone simply followed my lead, but if the members lacked the reasoning ability to distinguish between competent leaders, how would they know who to trust to lead them?

In my experience, disagreements between genuinely rational people overwhelmingly do not take a longer time to resolve. One of the basic components of rationality is knowing how to take new information on board and actually change your mind. Disagreements between irrational people tend to be far more intractable.

Comment author: ntroPi 14 February 2014 05:58:40PM 0 points [-]

"Society" doesn't make decisions, groups of people make decisions.

The way society forms mass-opinions and decides (i.e. by voting) on important issues is not easily split into groups of people making decisions.

Still I accept your mechanism because group decisions are a large part of society and improving that will improve society.

About the group project: If we can get everyone to be "genuinely rational" instead of just a bit more rational we will certainly live in a very different world. I don't expect that anytime soon though.

Comment author: Vladimir_Nesov 14 February 2014 05:23:52PM *  2 points [-]

Please don't assume that every reader has read all the sequences or has the time to do so just to understand your comment.

A particular post was linked. The implied requirement of having to "read all the sequences" is an extreme distortion of the issue that makes your remark seem more relevant.

Comment author: ntroPi 14 February 2014 05:37:12PM *  -2 points [-]

You're right. "Has read a majority of the sequences so that there is a high probability that this specific sequence is among them" would have been more precise.

While it was an exaggeration "extreme distortion" seems like a harsh judgement.

Edit: oh sorry - I i didn't mean to imply all the sequences are necessary for understanding. I'll fix the sentence.

Comment author: Desrtopa 14 February 2014 04:36:02PM 1 point [-]

I don't think it's true at all that there's no obvious mechanism that produces a more rational society from more rational people.

If I'm working on a project with a group of irrational people, the other members will tend to make mistakes of judgment which I'm simply too many steps of inference removed from them to realistically explain. So I give up, and the project suffers.

If I'm working on a project with a group of highly rational people, those problems can be avoided without even needing to be discussed, saving energy for higher level problems.

Groups are made up of individuals. If every individual in a group recognizes the problems which will attend a course of action, that group is much more likely to avoid those problems than a group where nobody recognizes them.

Comment author: ntroPi 14 February 2014 04:58:20PM *  2 points [-]

A group project is far away from society as a whole, where discussion and explanation between all members is impossible due to scale.

Your project could benefit from increased obedience as you could just lead rationally and the others would follow. Disagreements between rational people can take a longer time to resolve, etc.

I still agree to all your examples. More anecdotes will not be helpful, as I already agree that increased rationality will improve society (and group projects and institutions for that matter).

What I'm missing is a clear mechanism that actually produces a more rational society just from increasing the rationality of people. Please explain the mechanism.

Comment author: Emile 13 February 2014 05:38:30PM 9 points [-]

Time for a poll!

Systematic downvoting of users (that aren't spambots or obvious trolls) is wrong.

Systematic downvoting of users (that aren't spambots or obvious trolls) is against community norms (i.e. people should already know it's wrong).

It would be nice if admins had a way of automatically detecting such behavior (e.g. running an SQL query to pick up patterns of mass-downvote)

By the way, dear LessWrong reader, have you ever been a victim of mass downvotes?

And have you engaged in it?

(not that I think such polls should have power of law, it's just nice to have an idea of the opinion of the community)

Submitting...

Comment author: ntroPi 14 February 2014 04:38:01PM -2 points [-]

I disagree about having this problem solved by moderators. Changing the karma system would be preferable i.e. by removing the downvotes or having downvotes only affect the individual post but not on the total karma of the user.

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