Comment author: CBHacking 25 December 2014 10:42:48AM 1 point [-]

I've long considered the phrase to be feel-good noise; is that so atypical? It presumably has some effect, or people wouldn't use it so much, but I would be amused (and disinterested), and possibly a little concerned, if anybody tried to sell me on something because of that phrase alone.

Of course, a lot of it comes down to context. If somebody tried to sell me on a job by telling me I'd help to "change the world by producing computers than anybody can use and everyday families can afford", then that would definitely be more persuasive than either "come work for us, and change the world!" or "come work for us, making hardware and software is fun!". Even though there still isn't a real milestone defined, there's a discernible goal and it's a goal that I see value in. The fact that it's described as a "change the world" goal doesn't make it invalid, although you have to figure out for yourself how much of a change it would really be when deciding how important the goal is.

Comment author: ozziegooen 25 December 2014 06:35:12PM 0 points [-]

I agree the phrase isn't used in complete isolation, but A) I feel like even then we should come up with more specific phrases B) there's very rarely an analysis or philosophical understanding after it. C) It's often used with a lot of other vague terminology.

"producing computers than anybody can use and everyday families can afford" is a good example actually. That's about as specific as I hear companies talk. What I'm looking for is something more like, "We're aiming to maximize this axiomatic value system, which we believe we can do by producing computers. We believe we can get these machines to be less than $50 per person, which is expected to sell approximately 30-100 million machines for people making between 10k and 30k in the United States. The computers are expected to provide a benefit of increased income of 10-20% for people in this bracket. Given that we will use less than 50 people to do this, this comes to an expected benefit of $25 million saved per person, which is a better benefit than other competing ideas we considered"

If one is claiming they are doing good, I would like for them to have an idea of how and why they are doing it. I realize that this is difficult, but it definitely seems like a good direction to me.

Comment author: Petter 25 December 2014 03:40:43PM 3 points [-]

80,000 Hours (your employer?) has the following as its web page title:

“How to make a difference with your career”

and writes on the front page

“If you want to make the world a better place…”

To me, those are synonyms to “changing the world,” for the purpose of career description.

Comment author: ozziegooen 25 December 2014 06:25:09PM 4 points [-]

My previous employer. I still have a lot of respect for them, but do not directly agree with everything they do. Also, I realize that while I would prefer that these things were understood, in a world in which they are not understood, the terminology has some marketing privileges.

80,000 Hours does go far beyond the phrase, as I mentioned in the end. They use it as marketing terminology and follow it up with a pretty specific philosophy. Most groups that use this phrase don't do that.

Comment author: Vaniver 25 December 2014 03:54:34PM 4 points [-]

Behind every Steve Jobs are thousands of very intelligent and hard-working employees and millions of smart people who have created a larger ecosystem. If one only pays attention to Steve Jobs they will leave out most of the work. They will praise Steve Jobs far too highly and disregard the importance of unglamorous labor.

I think that Steve Jobs is a bad example here, since his specific genius is not in designing things himself but in wringing as much productive work as possible out of intelligent and hard-working employees doing unglamorous labor. (Consider Edison, whose primary invention was the modern R&D lab, vs. Tesla, who was a good inventor but terrible businessman or manager.)

Comment author: ozziegooen 25 December 2014 06:21:51PM 0 points [-]

I used Steve Jobs because he's about the most popular person in the Valley now, and I used him in the beginning of the essay.

Edison's R&D lab itself relied on lots of other skilled engineers (Tesla included at one time).

Tesla, out of all the engineers I know, does stand out as someone who did work solo. Even he though needed Westinghouse to manufacture and sell much of his work, and many funders to fund it all. Plus, I think in some ways Tesla may be a mediocre role model given how supremely intelligent he was (it seemed like more than the other two). This has meant that I personally have found it difficult to emulate him.

Why "Changing the World" is a Horrible Phrase

26 ozziegooen 25 December 2014 06:04AM

Steve Jobs famously convinced John Scully from Pepsi to join Apple Computer with the line, “Do you want to sell sugared water for the rest of your life? Or do you want to come with me and change the world?”.  This sounds convincing until one thinks closely about it.

Steve Jobs was a famous salesman.   He was known for his selling ability, not his honesty.  His terminology here was interesting.  ‘Change the world’ is a phrase that both sounds important and is difficult to argue with.  Arguing if Apple was really ‘changing the world’ would have been pointless, because the phrase was so ambiguous that there would be little to discuss.  On paper, of course Apple is changing the world, but then of course any organization or any individual is also ‘changing’ the world.  A real discussion of if Apple ‘changes the world’ would lead to a discussion of what ‘changing the world’ actually means, which would lead to obscure philosophy, steering the conversation away from the actual point.  

‘Changing the world’ is an effective marketing tool that’s useful for building the feeling of consensus. Steve Jobs used it heavily, as had endless numbers of businesses, conferences, nonprofits, and TV shows.  It’s used because it sounds good and is typically not questioned, so I’m here to question it.  I believe that the popularization of this phrase creates confused goals and perverse incentives from people who believe they are doing good things.

 

Problem 1: 'Changing the World' Leads to Television Value over Real Value

It leads nonprofit workers to passionately chase feeble things.  I’m amazed by the variety that I see in people who try to ‘change the world’. Some grow organic food, some research rocks, some play instruments. They do basically everything.  

Few people protest this variety.  There are millions of voices giving the appeal to ‘change the world’ in the way that would validate many radically diverse pursuits.  

TED, the modern symbol of the intellectual elite for many, is itself a grab bag of a ways to ‘change the world’, without any sense of scale between pursuits.  People tell comedic stories, sing songs, discuss tales of personal adventures and so on.  In TED Talks, all presentations are shown side-by-side with the same lighting and display.  Yet in real life some projects produce orders of magnitude more output than others.

At 80,000 Hours, I read many applications for career consulting. I got the sense that there are many people out there trying to live their lives in order to eventually produce a TED talk.  To them, that is what ‘changing the world’ means.  These are often very smart and motivated people with very high opportunity costs.  

I would see an application that would express interest in either starting an orphanage in Uganda, creating a woman's movement in Ohio, or making a conservatory in Costa Rica.  It was clear that they were trying to ‘change the world’ in a very vague and TED-oriented way.

I believe that ‘Changing the World’ is promoted by TED, but internally acts mostly as a Schelling point.  Agreeing on the importance of ‘changing the world’ is a good way of coming to a consensus without having to decide on moral philosophy. ‘Changing the world’ is simply the minimum common denominator for what that community can agree upon.  This is a useful social tool, but an unfortunate side effect was that it inspired many others to follow this shelling point itself.  Please don’t make the purpose of your life the lowest common denominator of a specific group of existing intellectuals. 

It leads businesses to be gain employees and media attention without having to commit to anything.  I’m living in Silicon Valley, and ‘Change the World’ is an incredibly common phrase for new and old startups. Silicon Valley (the TV show) made fun of it, as do much of the media.  They should, but I think much of the time they miss the point; the problem here is not one where the companies are dishonest, but one where their honestly itself just doesn’t mean much.  Declaring that a company is ‘changing the world’ isn’t really declaring anything.  

Hiring conversations that begin and end with the motivation of ‘changing the world’ are like hiring conversations that begin and end with making ‘lots’ of money.  If one couldn’t compare salaries between different companies, they would likely select poorly for salary.  In terms of social benefit, most companies don’t attempt to quantify their costs and benefits on society except in very specific and positive ways for them.  “Google has enabled Haiti disaster recovery” for social proof sounds to me like saying “We paid this other person $12,000 in July 2010” for salary proof. It sounds nice, but facts selected by a salesperson are simply not complete.

 

Problem 2: ‘Changing the World’ Creates Black and White Thinking

The idea that one wants to ‘change the world’ implies that there is such a thing as ‘changing the world’ and such a thing is ‘not changing the world’.  It implies that there are ‘world changers’ and people who are not ‘world changers’. It implies that there is one group of ‘important people’ out there and then a lot of ‘useless’ others.

This directly supports the ‘Great Man’ theory, a 19th century idea that history and future actions are led by a small number of ‘great men’.  There’s not a lot of academic research supporting this theory, but there’s a lot of attention to it, and it’s a lot of fun to pretend is true.  

But it’s not.  There is typically a lot of unglamorous work behind every successful project or organization. Behind every Steve Jobs are thousands of very intelligent and hard-working employees and millions of smart people who have created a larger ecosystem. If one only pays attention to Steve Jobs they will leave out most of the work. They will praise Steve Jobs far too highly and disregard the importance of unglamorous labor.

Typically much of the best work is also the most unglamorous.  Making WordPress websites, sorting facts into analysis, cold calling donors. Many the best ideas for organizations may be very simple and may have been done before. However, for someone looking to get to TED conferences or become superstars, it is very easy to look over other comparatively menial labor. This means that not only will it not get done, but those people who do it feel worse about themselves.

So some people do important work and feel bad because it doesn’t meet the TED standard of ‘change the world’.  Others try ridiculously ambitious things outside their own capabilities, fail, and then give up.  Others don’t even try, because their perceived threshold is too high for them.  The very idea of a threshold and a ‘change or don’t change the world’ approach is simply false, and believing something that’s both false and fundamentally important is really bad.

In all likelihood, you will not make the next billion-dollar nonprofit. You will not make the next billion-dollar business. You will not become the next congressperson in your district. This does not mean that you have not done a good job. It should not demoralize you in any way once you fail hardly to do these things. 

Finally, I would like to ponder on what happens once or if one does decide they have changed the world. What now? Should one change it again?

It’s not obvious.  Many retire or settle down after feeling accomplished.  However, this is exactly when trying is the most important.  People with the best histories have the best potentials.  No matter how much a U.S. President may achieve, they still can achieve significantly more after the end of their terms.  There is no ‘enough’ line for human accomplishment.

Conclusion

In summary the phrase change the world provides a lack of clear direction and encourages black-and-white thinking that distorts behaviors and motivation.  However, I do believe that the phrase can act as a stepping stone towards a more concrete goal.  ‘Change the World’ can act as an idea that requires a philosophical continuation.  It’s a start for a goal, but it should be recognized that it’s far from a good ending.

Next time someone tells you about ‘changing the world’, ask them to follow through with telling you the specifics of what they mean.  Make sure that they understand that they need to go further in order to mean anything.  

And more importantly, do this for yourself.  Choose a specific axiomatic philosophy or set of philosophies and aim towards those.  Your ultimate goal in life is too important to be based on an empty marketing term.

Comment author: ozziegooen 25 December 2014 05:56:01AM *  6 points [-]

I was one of the people who expressed opinion against the LW content. In general I liked the event, but found those parts off-putting. I'm really surprised that people new to it seemed so oblivious.

Perhaps one reason why people who were familiar with that content were hesitant about showing it to others, was that they were afraid it would reflect poorly on them. If I brought a bunch of 'regular' friends to a 'transhumanist' meetup that I told them I was somewhat involved in, I would be really be afraid of them getting a poor impression of transhumanism.

It's kind of like taking your significant other to meet your parents. You're significant other may not mind your parents quirks (or vice versa), but you notice every one and horrified for them.

Another thing that comes to mind is that they some of the 'serious' talk was controversial even among this crowd. Personally I really don't believe that humans should live forever, for example. Here the people who care the most about it would also care the most about discrepancies. For instance, a very devout Catholic would be the first to get angered by what they feel to be a wrong or mistaken representation of Catholicism at what seems like a very sacred event.

Overall though, thanks for getting feedback and writing this all up! I'm really interested in how it progresses.

Comment author: JonahSinick 05 April 2014 11:29:02PM *  1 point [-]

I studied engineering, but looking back Computer Science seems like it would have been a lot better.

I'd be very interested in hearing more – you're just the sort of person who I was hoping would comment (graduate from a top program several years out who switched fields and so has had exposure to both). In what respects would majoring in computer science have been better for you?

Comment author: ozziegooen 06 April 2014 12:17:14AM *  8 points [-]
  1. Computer science definitely seems better for making companies / entrepreneurship potential.

  2. In my experience, engineering jobs are far more segmented. You can be awesome at making microprocessors, but then only a few companies may be able to hire you. In other fields in similar; there are lots of interesting areas within engineering, but within each, it seems like there are only a very few specific companies, especially within a given geographic area.

  3. For whatever reason, a lot of engineering companies just don't seem that great (I think it's the lack of competition). Tesla and Space X (two of the top companies engineering friends would find jobs at) are much worse to work at than one may expect (see the Glassdoor ratings). Where you can find one, hope you keep the job (it often seems like you become specialized, and there just aren't many other great companies in the space. An example is Intel).

  4. I think that computer science jobs are more flexible than engineering jobs. I'm a bit more afraid of engineering jobs getting automated than computer science jobs (if you're ok learning a lot of new languages).

  5. More startups in computer science, if you're into that.

  6. The fact that engineering is way harder in college (at least my college) is an important factor. I really disliked much of my college experience because of the difficulty. Now a lot of the information doesn't seem applicable to my life, at all (I'll forget it quickly).

  7. It seems like with CS you get the bonus of understanding AI risk more, if you're into that.

I think that my (general engineering) degree definitely gives me a bit of a diverse background. I kind of have the option of going to a hardware/software startup, although I'm not sure I want to go in that direction with my career (it seems to narrow your career without improving your expected earnings). I like to think that it may be useful if I want to go into venture capital or some more diverse or meta-level positions, but now I'm really not sure about that.

One huge benefit to engineering is that I feel more comfortable making cool stuff, like arduino hobby circuits or burning man floats if I wanted to. It does feel really cool. Doesn't help my career as much though.

(For reference, I graduated with a 3.0 at Harvey Mudd College in General Engineering, focussed a bit on electrical. I spent 1 year doing web entrepreneurship with a cofounder, then another year with 80,000 hours doing web development.)

Comment author: ozziegooen 05 April 2014 11:18:16PM 3 points [-]

I want to note that engineering degrees can be more work than computer science degrees. This definitely true at Harvey Mudd College.

I studied engineering, but looking back Computer Science seems like it would have been a lot better. I've headed there since, but I definitely feel like I'm playing catch-up in comparison.

Comment author: ozziegooen 19 March 2014 01:46:50AM 0 points [-]

If all 'moral worth' meant was the consequences of what happened, I just wouldn't deem 'moral worth' to be that relevant towards judging. It would seem to me like we're just making 'moral worth' into something kind of irrelevant except from a completely pragmatic point.

Not sure if saying 'making the best decision you could is al you can do' is that much of a shortcut. I mean, I would imagine that a lot of smart people would realize that 'making the best decision you can' is still really, really difficult. If you act as your only judge (not just all of you, but only you at any given moment), then you may have less motivation; however, it would seem strange to me if 'fear of being judged' is the one thing that keeps us moral, even if it happens to become apparent that judging is technically impossible.

Comment author: ozziegooen 19 March 2014 01:50:03AM 0 points [-]

Also, keep in mind that in this case 'every decision you make is "good"', but 'good' is defined as everything, so it becomes a neutral term. In the future you can still learn stuff; you can say "I made the right decision at this time using what I knew, but then the results taught me some new information, and now I would know to choose differently next time".

Comment author: shokwave 18 March 2014 04:08:23PM *  1 point [-]

One would be ethical if their actions end up with positive outcomes, disregarding the intentions of those actions. For instance, a terrorist who accidentally foils an otherwise catastrophic terrorist plan would have done a very ‘morally good’ action.

This seems intuitively strange to many, it definitely is to me. Instead, ‘expected value’ seems to be a better way of both making decisions and judging the decisions made by others.

If the actual outcome of your action was positive, it was a good action. Buying the winning lottery ticket, as per your example, was a good action. Buying a losing lottery ticket was a bad action. Since we care about just the consequences of the action, the goodness of an action can only be evaluated after the consequences have been observed - at some point after the action was taken (I think this is enforced by the direction of causality, but maybe not).

So we don't know if an action is good or not until it's in the past. But we can only choose future actions! What's a consequentialist to do? (Equivalently, since we don't know whether a lottery ticket is a winner or a loser until the draw, how can we choose to buy the winning ticket and choose not to buy the losing ticket?) Well, we make the best choice under uncertainty that we can, which is to use expected values. The probability-literate person is making the best choice under uncertainty they can; the lottery player is not.

The next step is to say that we want as many good things to happen as possible, so "expected value calculations" is a correct way of making decisions (that can sometimes produce bad actions, but less often than others) and "wishful thinking" is an incorrect way of making decisions.

So the probability-literate used a correct decision procedure to come to a bad action, and the lottery player used an incorrect decision procedure to come to a good action.

The last step is to say that judging past actions changes nothing about the consequences of that action, but judging decision procedures does change something about future consequences (via changing which actions get taken). Here is the value in judging a person's decision procedures. The terrorist used a very morally wrong decision procedure to come up with a very morally good action: the act is good and the decision procedure is bad, and if we judge the terrorist by their decision procedure we influence future actions.

--

I think it's very important for consequentialists to always remember that an action's moral worth is evaluated on its consequences, and not on the decision theory that produced it. This means that despite your best efforts, you will absolutely make the best decision possible and still commit bad acts.

If you let it collapse - if you take the shortcut and say "making the best decision you could is all you can do", then every decision you make is good, except for inattentiveness or laziness, and you lose the chance to find out that expected value calculations or Bayes' theorem needs to go out the window.

Comment author: ozziegooen 19 March 2014 01:46:50AM 0 points [-]

If all 'moral worth' meant was the consequences of what happened, I just wouldn't deem 'moral worth' to be that relevant towards judging. It would seem to me like we're just making 'moral worth' into something kind of irrelevant except from a completely pragmatic point.

Not sure if saying 'making the best decision you could is al you can do' is that much of a shortcut. I mean, I would imagine that a lot of smart people would realize that 'making the best decision you can' is still really, really difficult. If you act as your only judge (not just all of you, but only you at any given moment), then you may have less motivation; however, it would seem strange to me if 'fear of being judged' is the one thing that keeps us moral, even if it happens to become apparent that judging is technically impossible.

Comment author: TheAncientGeek 17 March 2014 12:34:54PM *  1 point [-]

Yes. "Good" can mean desirable outcomes, or responsible decision making. The first obviously matches consequentialism. It appears not to be obvious to Lesswrongians that the second matches deontology. When we judge whether someone behaved culpably or not, we want to know whether they applied the rules and heuristic appropriate to their reference class (doctor, CEO, ships captain...). The consequences of their decision may have landed them in a tribunal, but we don't hold people to blame for applying the rules and getting the wrong results.

Comment author: ozziegooen 19 March 2014 01:34:19AM 0 points [-]

Perhaps I have misunderstood consequentialism and deontology, but my impression was that (many forms of) consequentialism prefers that people optimize expected utility, while deontology does not (it would consider other things, like 'not lying', as considerably more important). My impression was that this was basically the main differentiating factor.

Agree about the tribunal situation. From a consequentialist viewpoint it would seem like we would want to judge people formally (in tribunals) according to how well they made an expected value decision, rather than on the outcome. For one, because otherwise we would have a lot more court cases (anything causally linked to a crime is responsible)

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