In response to comment by qmotus on Quantum Bayesianism
Comment author: TheAncientGeek 13 October 2016 01:02:50PM *  0 points [-]

I guess that's possible, but how seriously should we take those when we have no empirical reasons to prefer them?

Doesn' that rebound on the argument for MWI?

Sincere and consistent instrumentalists may exist, but I think they are rare. What is much more common is for people to compartmentalise, to take and irrealist or instrumetalist stance about things that make them feel uncomfortable, while remaining cheerfully realist about other things.

At the end of the day, being able to predict phenomena isn’t that exciting. People generally do science because they want to find out about the world. And “rationaists”, internet atheists and so on generally do have ontological commitments, to the non-existence of gods and ghosts, some view about whether or not we are ina matrix and so on.

Comment author: qmotus 13 October 2016 02:34:07PM 0 points [-]

I'm certainly not an instrumentalist. But the argument that MWI supporters (and some critics, like Penrose) generally make, and which I've found persuasive, is that MWI is simply what you get if you take quantum mechanics at face value. Theories like GRW have modifications to the well-established formalism that we, as far as I know, have no empirical confirmation of.

In response to comment by qmotus on Quantum Bayesianism
Comment author: MrMind 12 October 2016 08:10:46AM 1 point [-]

These are difficult question because we are speculating about future mathematics / physics.

First of all, there's the question of how much of the quantum framework will survive the unification with gravity. Up until now, all theories that worked inside it have failed; worse, they have introduced black-hole paradoxes: most notably, thunderbolts and the firewall problem. I'm totally in the dark if a future unification will require a modification of the fundamental mathematical structure of QM. Say, if ER = EPR, and entanglement can be explained with a modified geometry of space-time, does it mean that superposition is also a geometrical phoenomenon that doesn't require multiple worlds? I don't really know.

But more on the point, I think (hope?) that future explorations of the quantum framework will yield an expanded landscape, where interpretations will be seen as the surface phoenomenon of something deeper: for example, something akin to what happens in classical mechanics with the Hamiltonian / Lagrangian formulations.

On a side note, I've read only the Wikipedia article on QBism and my impression was that it had an epistemological leaning, not ontological: if you use only SIC-POVMs, you can explain all quantum quirks with the epistemology of probability distributions. I might be very wrong, though.

In response to comment by MrMind on Quantum Bayesianism
Comment author: qmotus 12 October 2016 09:08:30PM 0 points [-]

Fair enough. I feel like I have a fairly good intuitive understanding of quantum mechanics, but it's still almost entirely intuitive, and so is probably entirely inadequate beyond this point. But I've read speculations like this, and it sounds like things can get interesting: it's just that it's unclear to me how seriously we should take them at this stage, and also some of them take MWI as a starting point, too.

Regarding QBism, my idea of it is mostly based on a very short presentation of it by Rüdiger Schack at a panel, and the thing that confuses me is that if quantum mechanics is entirely about probability, then what do those probabilities tell us about?

In response to comment by qmotus on Quantum Bayesianism
Comment author: TheAncientGeek 12 October 2016 09:10:27AM *  0 points [-]

If it doesn't fundamentally change quantum mechanics as a theory, is the picture likely to turn out fundamentally different from MWI?

CI/OR is a different picture to MWI, yet neither change QM as a number-crunching theory. You have hit on the fundamental problems of empiricism: the correct interpretation of a data is underdetermined by data, and interpretations can differ radically with small changes in data or no changes in data.

Comment author: qmotus 12 October 2016 08:57:14PM 0 points [-]

I'm not sure what you mean by OR, but if it refers to Penrose's interpretation (my guess, because it sounds like Orch-OR), then I believe that it indeed changes QM as a theory.

In response to comment by qmotus on Quantum Bayesianism
Comment author: TheAncientGeek 12 October 2016 09:05:26AM *  0 points [-]

We've already got a number of problems with MW -- see Dowker and Kent's paper.

The question is whether there is anything better. To go back to my original question, EY appears not to have heard of QBism, RQM, and other interpretations that aren't mentioned in The Fabric of Reality.

Comment author: qmotus 12 October 2016 08:55:19PM 0 points [-]

Guess I'll have to read that paper and see how much of it I can understand. Just at a glance, it seems that in the end they propose one of the modified theories like GRW interpretation might be the right way forward. I guess that's possible, but how seriously should we take those when we have no empirical reasons to prefer them?

In response to comment by qmotus on Quantum Bayesianism
Comment author: MrMind 11 October 2016 01:29:40PM *  0 points [-]

My idea is more on the line of "in the future we are going to grasp a conceptual frame that would make sense of all interpretations" (or explain them away) rather than pointing to a specific interpretation.

In response to comment by MrMind on Quantum Bayesianism
Comment author: qmotus 11 October 2016 10:00:55PM *  1 point [-]

If it doesn't fundamentally change quantum mechanics as a theory, is the picture likely to turn out fundamentally different from MWI? Roger Penrose, a vocal MWI critic, seems to wholeheartedly agree that QM implies MWI; it's just that he thinks that this means the theory is wrong. David Deutsch, I believe, has said that he's not certain that quantum mechanics is correct; but any modification of the theory, according to him, is unlikely to do away with the parallel universes.

QBism, too, seems to me to essentially accept the MWI picture as the underlying ontology, but then says that we should only care about the worlds that we actually observe (Sean Carroll has presented criticism similar to this, and mentioned that it sounds more like therapy to him), although it could be that I've misunderstood something.

Comment author: MrMind 10 October 2016 07:18:33AM 2 points [-]

In the Sequence, Eliezer made a strong case for the realist interpretation of QM (neo-Everettian many worlds), based on decoherence and Occam's razor. He then, in another point of the Sequence, tied that problem with interesting questions about anthropic probability (the infamous anthropic trilemma), and that cemented MWI as the preferred way to think about QM here.

On the other hand, I think we are still missing the big picture about quantum mechanics: ER = EPR, categorical quantum mechanics, QBism etc. all points us to interesting unexplored directions.

In response to comment by MrMind on Quantum Bayesianism
Comment author: qmotus 11 October 2016 09:59:55AM 0 points [-]

Do you think that we're likely to find something in those directions that would give a reason to prefer some other interpretation than MWI?

Comment author: MrMind 15 September 2016 07:40:43AM 1 point [-]

No, I was making a reference to the Litany of Tarski.

When you ask "how do I forget rationality?", it seems to me that you're asking how to go back to deceiving yourself. After all, rationality is the adherence of beliefs to reality, and there's nothing that subtracts you joy by changing your beliefs so that they are more in tune with reality: after all, reality was there all along.
Perhaps ponderating on the joy of the merely real could help.

Comment author: qmotus 15 September 2016 10:54:07AM 1 point [-]

It could be that reality has nasty things in mind for us that we can't yet see and that we cannot affect in any way, and therefore I would be happier if I didn't know of them in advance. Encountering a new idea like this that somebody has discovered is one my constant worries when browsing this site.

Comment author: turchin 06 September 2016 02:11:26PM *  0 points [-]

I agree about wishful thinking.

Ok, but what if your were Omega, how you could try to escape from DA curse?

One way is to reset own clock, or to reduce number of people to 1, so DA will work, but willnot result in total extinction.

Another way is to hope that some another strange thing like quantum immortality will help "me" to survive.

Comment author: qmotus 06 September 2016 05:22:49PM 0 points [-]

Wouldn't that mean surviving alone?

Comment author: turchin 03 September 2016 09:26:27AM 0 points [-]

I think that most LessWrongers would vote for mathematical universe. The idea of timeless mathematical manyworld universe was presented in sequences. When I first meet it I was attracted to its simpleness and beauty.

But now I found that where is reasonable objection to it, like expected complexity problem. Most math objects should be extremely complex, and it is not what we see.

Comment author: qmotus 03 September 2016 12:36:29PM -1 points [-]

MUH has a certain appeal, but its problems as well, as you say (and substituting CUH for MUH feels a little ad hoc to me), and I fear parsimony can lead us astray here in any case. I still think it's a good attempt, but we should not be too eager to accept it.

Maybe you should make a map of reasons for why this question matters. It's probably been regarded as an uninteresting question since it is difficult (if not impossible) the test empirically, and because of this humanity has overall not directed enough brainpower to solving it.

Comment author: turchin 23 August 2016 08:49:05PM *  -1 points [-]

(memetic hazard) ˙sƃuıɹǝɟɟns lɐuɹǝʇǝ ɯnɯıxɐɯ ǝʇɐǝɹɔ oʇ pǝsıɯıʇdo ɹǝʇʇɐɯ sı ɯnıuoɹʇǝɹnʇɹoʇ

Update: added full description of the idea in my facebook https://www.facebook.com/turchin.alexei/posts/10210360736765739?comment_id=10210360769286552¬if_t=feed_comment¬if_id=1472326132186571

Comment author: qmotus 24 August 2016 10:31:07AM 2 points [-]

Uh, I think you should format your post so that somebody reading that warning would also have time to react to it and actually avoid reading the thing you're warning about.

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