Comment author: wnewman 29 March 2011 02:33:13PM 2 points [-]

lukeprog wrote "philosophers are 'spectacularly bad' at understanding that their intuitions are generated by cognitive algorithms." I am pretty confident that minds are physical/chemical systems, and that intuitions are generated by cognitive algorithms. (Furthermore, many of the alternatives I know of are so bizarre that given that such an alternative is the true reality of my universe, the conditional probability that rationality or philosophy is going to do me any good seems to be low.) But philosophy as often practiced values questioning everything, and so I don't think it's quite fair to expect philosophers to "understand" this (which I read in this context as synonymous as "take this for granted"). I'd prefer a formulation like "spectacularly bad at seriously addressing [or, perhaps, even properly understanding] the obvious hypothesis that their intuitions are generated by cognitive algorithms." It seems to me that the criticism rewritten in this form remains severe.

Comment author: quen_tin 29 March 2011 02:54:28PM 0 points [-]

I agree, and I really doubt philosophers fail to deeply question their own intuitions.

Comment author: prase 28 March 2011 10:56:41PM 14 points [-]

Unfortunately, many important problems are fundamentally philosophical problems. Philosophy itself is unavoidable.

Isn't this true just because the way philosophy is effectively defined? It's a catch-all category for poorly understood problems which have nothing in common except that they aren't properly investigated by some branch of science. Once a real question is answered, it no longer feels like a philosophical question; today philosophers don't investigate motion of celestial bodies or structure of matter any more.

In other words, I wonder what are the fundamentally philosophical questions. The adverb fundamentally creates the impression that those questions will be still regarded as philosophical after being uncontroversially answered, which I doubt will ever happen.

Comment author: quen_tin 29 March 2011 02:30:40PM -1 points [-]

In a sense, science is nothing but experimental philosophy (in a broad sense), and the job of non-experimental-philosophy (what we label philosophy) is to make any question become an experimental question... But I would say that philosophy remains important as the framework where science and scientific fundamental concepts (truth, reality, substance) are defined and discussed.

Comment author: wedrifid 24 September 2010 05:39:14PM 0 points [-]

Evidently.

Comment author: quen_tin 24 September 2010 06:46:46PM 0 points [-]

end loop;

Comment author: wedrifid 24 September 2010 08:49:15AM 1 point [-]

You confusing experience itself with your intuitions about experience. Your actual experience makes just as much sense if you perceive yourself to be part of a great tree of branches.

Comment author: quen_tin 24 September 2010 09:28:04AM 0 points [-]

Then I followed a path on this tree.

Comment author: wedrifid 23 September 2010 09:57:43PM 1 point [-]

It does not explain why we followed that path in the many world, not another one.

It doesn't explain that because that isn't what happened.

Comment author: quen_tin 24 September 2010 08:44:23AM -1 points [-]

That is my experience. As far as I can know if something happened, that happened.

Comment author: wedrifid 23 September 2010 08:50:10PM 1 point [-]

You're right, there is no certainty, but my jumps are not totally ungrounded. We all experience a flow of time in a single world, and the many-worlds interpretion does not really explains it.

It really does. At the level of everyday life branching explains our experiences exactly as well as a non-quantum explanation. When we happen to be using scientific apparatus our experience is better explained by MW.

Comment author: quen_tin 23 September 2010 09:54:08PM 0 points [-]

It does not explain why we followed that path in the many world, not another one. Our experience is "better explain" > it is a good heuristic interpretation.

Comment author: Perplexed 23 September 2010 09:29:56PM 0 points [-]

Indeed I find it reasonable to assume that everyone else can claim the same for him/herself.

Ah! "Reasonable to assume". One of my favorite phrases. There are many things which it might be reasonable to assume. Unfortunately for you, the particular thing you have chosen to assume is not one of them. Because you will probably agree that I am a member of the set of people you mean by "everyone else". But I assert that I do not and can not claim that my experience has a subjectively privileged ontological status.

Comment author: quen_tin 23 September 2010 09:40:38PM -1 points [-]

I did not claim that my experience has a subjectively priviledged ontological status. This is your interpretation. I meant it has a subjectively priviledged epistemological status.

Comment author: DanielVarga 23 September 2010 08:47:54PM *  0 points [-]

Maybe it's not really an empirical fact, but then do you really think that past still "exist" and future already "exist" as well as present does ?

My position is very close to the position of Max Tegmark, Gary Drescher and other compatibilist B-theorists, so yes, I really really honestly believe that past and future exist as well as present does. At least in some sense of the word "exists", but this is not a cop-out, the sense I used it must be very similar to the sense you used it. There is another reasonable sense of the word "exists" (corresponding to Tegmark's frog's view), where only some of the past and present exists, and not too much of the future.

The point is, you have several choices about how to consistently formalize your vague statement, but whichever you choose, your "empirical fact" will be factually incorrect.

Comment author: quen_tin 23 September 2010 09:27:21PM -2 points [-]

your "empirical fact" will be factually incorrect.

I really doubt it. how could you factually prove that the past or the future exist ?

Let's say my position is a very narrow version of Tegmark's view, and that I call "present" (with a certain thickness) the parts of the past and future that actually "exist".

Comment author: Perplexed 23 September 2010 08:57:05PM 1 point [-]

But what is it that makes you think that your experience has privileged ontological significance? Is it that you think that instantiation from your viewpoint is isomorphic to instantiation from everyone else's viewpoint? Why would you believe that with any confidence?

Comment author: quen_tin 23 September 2010 09:14:51PM -2 points [-]

my experience is the only thing I can assume as real. Everything else is derived from my experience. It is thus the only thing that needs to be explained.

Indeed I find it reasonable to assume that everyone else can claim the same for him/herself.

Comment author: Perplexed 23 September 2010 05:55:40PM 4 points [-]

One often sees talk here of something called the "Mind Projection Fallacy". In essence, it is the error of taking something subjective and treating it as objective. A canonical example would be saying "X is mysterious", rather than "I don't understand X". That is, what ought to be handled as a two-place predicate IsMysteriousTo(X,N) (topic X is mysterious to person N) is erroneously handled as a one-place predicate IsMysterious(X) (topic X is mysterious, full stop).

One criticism that might be made of the position you are taking here is that you are falling into a form of the Mind Projection Fallacy. Try imagining Exists(X) as a fallacious one-place predicate and replace it with ExistsFor(X,N), i.e. X has existence from the viewpoint of observer N.

Similarly, you should say "X was instantiated at a point in time in my past, hence X currently exists from my viewpoint, and I expect X to cease to exist at some point in my future. Any other supposed X, existing on some other branch of reality, is not the X to which I refer."

This, as I understand it, is the way Kripke says that issues of identity and existence must be handled in modal logics.

If you can accept this viewpoint, then it is just a small step to realizing that the people you are disagreeing with, those who consider past, future, and all branches of reality as equally "real" are actually talking about the model theory for your modal logic.

Comment author: quen_tin 23 September 2010 08:48:29PM 0 points [-]

My point is that this model theory is incomplete, because it does not fully explain my experience. The model lacks a kind of instantiation.

As a "model theory of my modal logic", it may have an heuristic interest, not an ontological one. In other words, it's fine as long as you consider it only as a descriptive/predictive model. It's not if you think it is reality.

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