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If anyone is interested in actually being part of a support group of sorts, let me know- if enough people are interested, I'll see if I can find a good way to do it.
Just getting rid of stuff is one way to stop a trigger. Building up a way to deal with it is another. Like, you could come up with a plan for your finances, and practice bringing up your finances and saying that plan, so you build another association with your finances that isn't a loop of anxious thoughts. Like role-play therapy, where you plan out and practice your reactions to someone saying something before hand.
I am assuming a heluvalot about you with that advice though, sorry if that doesn't even make sense.
Well, I'm not the only person who struggles with anxiety, much less mental illness in general, so while your advice may not apply to me it probably applies to someone else. Focusing all of the discussion of mental illness on the one mentally ill person who started the discussion is... well, not exactly what I started the discussion FOR. So, any advice you have is totally welcome and appreciated.
It's not like I don't give out any internet based advice.
In this thread I did make a point to recommend gratitude journaling. It's good even if you don't do it in a group. I haven't heard from anyone messing themselves up with gratitude journaling.
Another recommendation would be meditating. Meditating is more risky. It makes suppressed emotions come up and you have to deal with them. I have no way of judging to what extend a person like you will handle that, because I don't know much about you. I know that on average meditating is great, but it's not without risks.
The standard advice would be to find a good local meditation teacher but I can't say anything about the quality of your local teachers.
I don't think it's impossible to give good advice via skype in principle but it's not a skill in which I'm well trained.
I meditate regularly- not quite daily, because when I get into a meditative state, I tend to not want to come out. When I do meditate, I'm still and quiet for at LEAST an hour. If I try to meditate for, say, 30 minutes, I end up setting another timer because I didn't get deep enough into quiet state. Meditation doesn't bring up suppressed emotions for me, though.
I do journal, but not gratitude journaling. I haven't tried that one because it seems more suited to a sad, apathetic person than a person who cares too much about everything and tends to minimize the good and maximize the bad. I like tracking the anxiety, though, and writing down thoughts lets me temporarily remove them from my mental state.
If there nobody to talk about deep personal issues in the city in which you are living, why are you living in the city in the first place?
The last time you posted something like this, I fretted for a whole day, trying to figure out how to respond. I found I could not do so without a mindkillxplosion at how offensive it is, so I settled for a silent downvote.
Welcome to the Mid-southern United States, where nothing is within walking distance of anything else, huge swaths of land have no sidewalks, gas mileage is artificially deflated, public transit consists of like three buses if you live in a huge town with at least 60k people, and there is no way to travel between towns other than owning your own vehicle or having people willing to drive you. (I did find a cab driver willing to get me to the nearest town with an interstate bus terminal; he estimated that trip would cost me $130. In a good month, that's over 10% of my cumulative funds.).
On the bright side, the cost of living is low enough that Wellfare is actually livable, if one min-maxes food and utilities and has no debt.
Now, add mental illness on top of that. Then, be careful never to so much as hint that you might maybe possibly be anything other than a practicing Christian (or at least be so damn smooth that you can get people to believe you're joking when you reveal your nonchristianity, on the grounds that "I don't believe you're a bad person" (an actual quote from one of my father's customers)). Not that religious discrimination matters when you're completely isolated.
Now, you have lots wrong with your life, but the tiny handful of things that you still manage to care about are staying here.
You're unemployed, disabled, friendless, have less than $2000 to your name, ~$90000 in student debt, and are drowning in anxiety/depression/akrasia/learned helplessness... and someone from a nice city with financial security expresses bafflement that you don't just move to a nice city like theirs. The pattern-matching alone was absurd enough that I couldn't trust myself not to quote The Grapes of Wrath.
I really don't feel like I handled this well, but I've been holding it in for a couple years, now, and clearly, something needed to be said.
I empathized maybe a little too much with this post. Thank you for writing it.
Sometimes I'll read something written by a person from a different area of the world and be utterly baffled- these people are WALKING to the store? I mean, there's a Braum's about half a mile away, but if you're actually buying things that can be pretty impractical. I live pretty close to the metro in my state, but even still, everything's pretty far away.
Something I've noticed about Europeans in particular- what to us is the next big town over, is the next country over to many of them. "Hey, there's a meetup in Austin! That's only about 300 miles away!" is like "Well, there's a meeting in France, but no way I'm driving 300 miles just for that." America is BIG. If you take a major highway, there can be a hundred miles between one town and the next.
The whole, "well, why don't you just move somewhere better?" is particularly crazy when you think about this. Movers cost hundreds of dollars a day. Moving any great distance takes days. Getting a new residence is RIDICULOUSLY expensive in the "nice" places. Rent for a 1000sqft apartment in New York is more than I've made in the last six months. Then there's downpayments, utilities, setting up new accounts for phones and internet, etc. You'll probably need a new license. College costs TRIPLE if you move out of state, because there's this awful thing they do where if you haven't been a state resident for X period of time, they get to charge you triple tuition. Heaven forbid you have to move with another person- a kid, say. I'd have to save for YEARS to be able to afford the first three months of a new residence.
Anxiety transcends a normal thing and enters mental illness when it becomes pervasive and unreasonable.
If the thought of asking out a woman for a date raises anxiety in me I don't care at all whether or not that's "reasonable" or "normal". It's a trigger that I don't want to have regardless of whether it's classified as a mental illness.
Maybe "mental illness" is a bad frame, but at the moment, do we really have another to work with?
Yes. I have multiple different one's.
In Danis Bois perceptive pedagogy an answer might be: "You have problems with anxiety and worry about what you said last year because you constantly feel that you have to prove that you exist. If you would have a strong feeling of existence, your issues with anxiety would simply clear."
In NLP it might be: "There are a bunch of situation where you are ineffective triggers that produce unproductive emotions. Let's do the Fast Phobia Cure on all of them and get done with the problem."
Lefkoe Method would say: "You might have 40 limiting beliefs that produce that problem like "I'm not lovable", let's go and clear those beliefs by spending 30 minutes on each of them with the Lefkoe Method."
I haven't been at a CFAR workshop so I don't know their exact answer, but part of it seems to be: "Let's get clear about how our emotional desires differ from our intellectual one's and train comfort zone extension."
That's no complete list.
But when we go back to how to discuss the issue on LW, framing the issue as being around anxiety is likely more productive than framing it as being about mental illnesses in general.
Interesting, I haven't heard of most of these. When I get the chance I'll have to do some research.
Anxiety CAN be a good response. The fear-response that anxiety basically is can be a good "oh crap, I'm in a bad situation here." Getting nervous when asking someone out is uncomfortable and kinda useless. Getting nervous walking down a street at night when someone seems to be following you is normal, and helps you respond properly. The pervasiveness is a major part. If the anxiety is infringing on your life in a lot of useless ways, you probably have an anxiety problem. If a minor problem causes extreme fear, like an unbearable fear of close spaces, you might have a problem- almost everyone has to get in an elevator at some point, and having a panic attack because of it would be inconvenient and unpleasant.
Perhaps tackling specific problems at a time would be more effective. But considering the sheer number of kinds of problems here, I'm not sure. If I wanted to write a sequence on "general mental illness" (sorry, I'm going to continue using that phrase because it's not confusing and it's a good, simple term that doesn't require a lot of terms and you all know what I mean), and wrote, say, one article per mental illness... Well, I could say goodbye to ever getting anything else done. The research alone would take a lifetime, just on what we know now. Writing something worth having on LessWrong is a pretty big endeavor.
Once again, the problem is the sheer complexity of the problem. If we only tackled the really common ones (depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, etc.) we might be able to do some good work, though.
Argh. This post sounds like a lot of inefficiencies.
Let's be practical and use the KISS principle the right way. What are your problems? What are you trying to improve? I'm no therapist, and my english is too bad to produce a decent quote, but I'm still quite sure that you can get amazing results if you cross off "mental illness" and open a new page with "self improvement".
You're free to ad hominem me. You're free to do whatever you want. But the bottom line is that as long as you don't strive to better yourself, you're doomed, no matter who you are.
Your english is better than the english of a lot of native speakers.
Well... yeah, online discussion is inefficient. But when you're cut off from the efficient options, you probably shouldn't throw up your hands and give up. I'm not sure if that's what you meant, though.
I think you may be disregarding the viewpoints of others, here. You can't do any efficient self-improvement if you refuse to call your problems what they are. It might feel nice to say "You know what? I'm not mentally ill. I just need to improve myself." I WANT to improve myself. Most people here do. I've hit a roadblock here, and I want to talk to other people that have, or have in the past. I'd like to hear the viewpoints of others. What worked, what didn't, etc. Group therapy/discussions with people with the same problem or similar have been extremely helpful to a lot of people.
Also, "keep it simple, stupid" is only helpful when the problem can be simplified further. Simplifying things is really hard when we don't understand them, and mental illness is one of science's big question marks.
I'm not trying to ad hominem you, and I'm sorry if I came off that way.
In response to
Can we talk about mental illness?
It's hard to give good advice on the topic of mental illness without falling into the trap of Other-Optimizing.
Agreed. But mental illness is such a weird and complex thing that it's even hard for trained professionals to help with. A lot of the posts here about Akrasia helped some, didn't touch others. I suspect we'd see the same results with this.
In response to
Can we talk about mental illness?
I think cognitive delusions often maintain themselves by being non-falsifiable, and an explicit knowledge of epistemology might help people better use logic to compensate.
I managed to get a schizophrenic acquaintance who had anxiety-causing delusional ideas which originated in mind-body dualism to reject mind-body dualism, after carefully explaining why parsimony is a good way to distinguish between the various non-falsifiable hypotheses and how one can roughly approximate what is and is not parsimonious and why the mind instinctively gravitates to mind-body dualism even though it's not necessarily true. After I finished explaining she kind of laughed and admitted there really was no good reason for her to believe those things. I might be imagining it, but she seemed relieved as well as amused.
We unfortunately lost contact, so I'm not sure if it stuck. This is the most extreme example, but I've seen other, less extreme cases where talking people away from odd beliefs was helpful to them. It's important to be convincing in these talks, and appealing to epistemically sound reasoning (as opposed to just dismissing it as most people do) is a good way to be convincing. Healthy people can instinctively tell that a delusion is silly, but for those whose instincts aren't working properly and take delusions seriously it's important to be able to explicitly explain why it's silly.
For some reason, your first sentence gave me the urge to hug you. I suspect it was a reaction to the fact that someone understood that. I've never been able to explain to anyone why "but it isn't your fault" doesn't let my brain believe it's not my fault.
Interesting. I suspect it did, except in particularly strong attacks (if her schizophrenia was periodic rather than constant).
In response to
Can we talk about mental illness?
Reminder that CBT workbooks for specific problems have been shown to be almost as effective as in person therapies and that you can just buy them on Amazon.
referral link is for Slate Star Codex if you're wondering.
Ooh, cool. I did not know that. Thank you for posting these!
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Agreed. Personal anecdote: once I redefined my "motivation problem" as a "depression and anxiety problem" a number of months ago, and began treating this depression and anxiety instead of wearily trying out yet another willpower hack, I have made more progress in being motivated in months than I had in the previous years.
This is exactly what I was doing- constantly looking for the system that would let me be successful while ignoring the root problems. I only accepted the anxiety when it got too bad to ignore. Can I ask what you've been doing that's been so effective?