Comment author: scmbradley 15 July 2012 10:05:26AM 1 point [-]

Signals by Brian Skyrms is a great book in this area. It shows how signalling can evolve in even quite simple set-ups.

Comment author: [deleted] 17 March 2012 01:11:43PM 1 point [-]

Here's a related point: Omega will never put the money in the box. Smith act like a one-boxer. Omega predicts that Smith will one-box. So the million is put in the opaque box. Now Omega reasons as follows: "Wait though. Even if Smith is a one-boxer, now that I've fixed what will be in the boxes, Smith is better off two-boxing. Smith is smart enough to realise that two-boxing is dominant, once I can't causally affect the contents of the boxes." So Omega doesn't put the money in the box.

By that logic, you can never win in Kavka's toxin/Parfit's hitchhiker scenario.

In response to comment by [deleted] on Decision Theories: A Less Wrong Primer
Comment author: scmbradley 20 March 2012 05:49:32PM 0 points [-]

So I agree. It's lucky I've never met a game theorist in the desert.

Less flippantly. The logic pretty much the same yes. But I don't see that as a problem for the point I'm making; which is that the perfect predictor isn't a thought experiment we should worry about.

Comment author: APMason 17 March 2012 07:10:24PM 1 point [-]

According to what rules?

I think he meant according to the rules of the thought experiments. In Newcomb's problem, Omega predicts what you do. Whatever you choose to do, that's what Omega predicted you would choose to do. You cannot to choose to do something that Omega wouldn't predict - it's impossible. There is no such thing as "the kind of agent who is predicted to one-box, but then two-box once the money has been put in the opaque box".

Comment author: scmbradley 20 March 2012 05:44:34PM 0 points [-]

Elsewhere on this comment thread I've discussed why I think those "rules" are not interesting. Basically, because they're impossible to implement.

Comment author: Jonathan_Graehl 16 March 2012 09:24:28PM 0 points [-]

The larger point makes sense. Those two things you prefer are impossible according to the rules, though.

Comment author: scmbradley 17 March 2012 12:53:24PM 0 points [-]

According to what rules? And anyway I have preferences for all kinds of impossible things. For example, I prefer cooperating with copies of myself, even though I know it would never happen, since we'd both accept the dominance reasoning and defect.

Comment author: orthonormal 16 March 2012 03:37:30PM 1 point [-]

That's one valid way of looking at the distinction.

CDT allows the causal link from its current move in chess to its opponent's next move, so it doesn't view the two as independent.

In Newcomb's Problem, traditional CDT doesn't allow a causal link from its decision now to Omega's action before, so it applies the independence assumption to conclude that two-boxing is the dominant strategy. Ditto with playing PD against its clone.

(Come to think of it, it's basically a Markov chain formalism.)

Comment author: scmbradley 17 March 2012 12:45:36PM 0 points [-]

So these alternative decision theories have relations of dependence going back in time? Are they sort of couterfactual dependences like "If I were to one-box, Omega would have put the million in the box"? That just sounds like the Evidentialist "news value" account. So it must be some other kind of relation of dependence going backwards in time that rules out the dominance reasoning. I guess I need "Other Decision Theories: A Less Wrong Primer".

Comment author: Estarlio 16 March 2012 02:57:38PM -1 points [-]

Which brings me back to whether Omega is feasible. I just don't share the intuition that Omega is capable of the sort of predictive capacity required of it.

Well, I guess my response to that would be that it's a thought experiment. Omega's really just an extreme - hypothetical - case of a powerful predictor, that makes problems in CDT more easily seen by amplifying them. If we were to talk about the prisoner's dilemma, we could easily have roughly the same underlying discussion.

Comment author: scmbradley 17 March 2012 12:41:11PM 0 points [-]

See mine and orthonormal's comments on the PD on this post for my view of that.

The point I'm struggling to express is that I don't think we should worry about the thought experiment, because I have the feeling that Omega is somehow impossible. The suggestion is that Newcomb's problem makes a problem with CDT clearer. But I argue that Newcomb's problem makes the problem. The flaw is not with the decision theory, but with the concept of such a predictor. So you can't use CDT's "failure" in this circumstance as evidence that CDT is wrong.

Here's a related point: Omega will never put the money in the box. Smith act like a one-boxer. Omega predicts that Smith will one-box. So the million is put in the opaque box. Now Omega reasons as follows: "Wait though. Even if Smith is a one-boxer, now that I've fixed what will be in the boxes, Smith is better off two-boxing. Smith is smart enough to realise that two-boxing is dominant, once I can't causally affect the contents of the boxes." So Omega doesn't put the money in the box.

Would one-boxing ever be advantageous if Omega were reasoning like that? No. The point is Omega will always reason that two-boxing dominates once the contents are fixed. There seems to be something unstable about Omega's reasoning. I think this is related to why I feel Omega is impossible. (Though I'm not sure how the points interact exactly.)

Comment author: orthonormal 16 March 2012 03:57:23AM 1 point [-]

Again, the dominance reasoning seems impeccable to me. In fact, I'm tempted to say that I would want any future advanced decision theory to satisfy some form of this dominance principle: it's crazy to ever choice an act that is guaranteed to be worse.

It's not always cooperating- that would be dumb. The claim is that there can be improvements on what a CDT algorithm can achieve: TDT or UDT still defects against an opponent that always defects or always cooperates, but achieves (C,C) in some situations where CDT gets (D,D). The dominance reasoning is only impeccable if agents' decisions really are independent, just like certain theorems in probability only hold when the random variables are independent. (And yes, this is a precisely analogous meaning of "independent".)

Comment author: scmbradley 16 March 2012 02:03:32PM 1 point [-]

Aha. So when agents' actions are probabilistically independent, only then does the dominance reasoning kick in?

So the causal decision theorist will say that the dominance reasoning is applicable whenever the agents' actions are causally independent. So do these other decision theories deny this? That is, do they claim that the dominance reasoning can be unsound even when my choice doesn't causally impact the choice of the other?

Comment author: scmbradley 16 March 2012 01:56:56PM 29 points [-]

Given the discussion, strictly speaking the pill reduces Ghandi's reluctance to murder by 1 percentage point. Not 1%.

Comment author: Jonathan_Graehl 15 March 2012 01:19:05AM 4 points [-]

I generally share your reservations.

But as I understand it, proponents of alternative DTs are talking about a conditional PD where you know you face an opponent executing a particular DT. The fancy-DT-users all defect on PD when the prior of their PD-partner being on CDT or similar is high enough, right?

Wouldn't you like to be the type of agent who cooperates with near-copies of yourself? Wouldn't you like to be the type of agent who one-boxes? The trick is to satisfy this desire without using a bunch of stupid special-case rules, and show that it doesn't lead to poor decisions elsewhere.

Comment author: scmbradley 16 March 2012 01:54:47PM 0 points [-]

Wouldn't you like to be the type of agent who cooperates with near-copies of yourself? Wouldn't you like to be the type of agent who one-boxes?

Yes, but it would be strictly better (for me) to be the kind of agent who defects against near-copies of myself when they co-operate in one-shot games. It would be better to be the kind of agent who is predicted to one-box, but then two-box once the money has been put in the opaque box.

But the point is really that I don't see it as the job of an alternative decision theory to get "the right" answers to these sorts of questions.

Comment author: Estarlio 16 March 2012 04:22:37AM 1 point [-]

Here's an example of a related kind of "reflexivity makes prediction meaningless". Let's say Omega bets you $100 that she can predict what you will eat for breakfast. Once you accept this bet, you now try to think of something that you would never otherwise think to eat for breakfast, in order to win the bet. The fact that your actions and the prediction of your actions have been connected in this way by the bet makes your actions unpredictable.

Your actions have been determined in part by the bet that Omega has made with you - I do not see how that is supposed to make them unpredictable any more than adding any other variable would do so. Remember: You only appear to have free will from within the algorithm, you may decide to think of something you'd never otherwise think about but Omega is advanced enough to model you down to the most basic level - it can predict your more complex behaviours based upon the combination of far simpler rules. You cannot necessarily just decide to think of something random which would be required in order to be unpredictable.

Similarly, the whole question of whether you should choose to two box or one box is a bit iffy. Strictly speaking there's no SHOULD about it. You will one box or you will two box. The question phrased as a should question - as a choice - is meaningless unless you're treating choice as a high-level abstraction of lower level rules; and if you do that, then the difficult disappears - just as you don't ask a rock whether it should or shouldn't crush someone when it falls down a hill.

Meaningfully, we might ask whether it is preferable to be the type of person who two boxes or the type of person who one boxes. As it turns out it seems to be more preferable to one-box and make stinking great piles of dosh. And as it turns out I'm the sort of person who, holding a desire for filthy lucre, will do so.

It's really difficult to side step your intuitions - your illusion that you actually get a free choice here. And I think the phrasing of the problem and its answers themselves have a lot to do with that. I think if you think that people get a choice - and the mechanisms of Omega's prediction hinge upon you being strongly determined - then the question just ceases to make sense. And you've got to jettison one of the two; either Omega's prediction ability or your ability to make a choice in the sense conventionally meant.

Comment author: scmbradley 16 March 2012 01:47:03PM 1 point [-]

we might ask whether it is preferable to be the type of person who two boxes or the type of person who one boxes. As it turns out it seems to be more preferable to one-box

No. What is preferable is to be the kind of person Omega will predict will one-box, and then actually two-box. As long as you "trick" Omega, you get strictly more money. But I guess your point is you can't trick Omega this way.

Which brings me back to whether Omega is feasible. I just don't share the intuition that Omega is capable of the sort of predictive capacity required of it.

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