Comment author: savageorange 16 February 2013 12:32:30AM 0 points [-]

They do. What else would we use the word 'reality' to mean? I'm not seeing any alternative here (infinite recursion on the concept of 'reality' doesn't count as a solution.)

Comment author: shiftedShapes 16 February 2013 04:37:42AM 0 points [-]

Just what one experiences, with the external world that we agree upon going by consensus reality. Is that what you were asking.

Comment author: shiftedShapes 15 February 2013 09:30:29PM *  4 points [-]

Practical General: always shop around for a lawyer. Use google to find specialists in the relevant field, the more familiar he is with what you need done the more effective (including cost-effective) he will be in doing it.

Practical Specific: this area of law is likely unsettled and whatever is worked out beyond a garden variety will is likely to not have much practical effect on your remains getting where they need to be in a timely manner. To ensure expeditious handling of your remains you probably should make sure that you maintain close connections with reliable people who are well apprised of your wishes (and that those wishes are clearly documented, this is a simple matter of creating a will that a trust and estates lawyer should be able to advise you of cheaply).

Theoretical: Does one increase one's chances of reanimation more by signing up and planning for cryonization or by allocating an equivalent amount of resources to bringing about AGI?

Comment author: savageorange 15 February 2013 02:17:06PM *  -1 points [-]

So, right at the beginning of this thread, you meant 'direct'. And you never corrected this misunderstanding, even after I repeatedly talked about indirect realism in my replies?

Comment author: shiftedShapes 15 February 2013 02:34:44PM 0 points [-]

No when I said indirect I meant that as well. My problem is that they both use "reality" to reference a theoretical construct that arguably none of us have ever experienced.

Comment author: David_Allen 15 February 2013 06:02:26AM 0 points [-]

If you have a point then lay it out. Set a context, make your claims and challenge mine. Expose your beliefs and accept the risks.

I lay out my claims to you because I want you to challenge them from your perspective. I will not follow your leading questions to your chosen point of philosophical ambush.

Comment author: shiftedShapes 15 February 2013 01:24:41PM 0 points [-]

There can only be a philosophical ambush if you are more concerned about winning than ascertaining the truth. I have no interest in fighting for its own sake so I will simply wish you well.

Comment author: savageorange 15 February 2013 05:59:40AM *  0 points [-]

I assume you mean indirect realism, since that's what that quote is about.

Am I to take it, then, that you would approve of a statement revised to read:

"Indirect realism is broadly equivalent to the view that states that we can know only our ideas and interpretations of the way the world is, and cannot obtain any knowledge directly from reality."

Comment author: shiftedShapes 15 February 2013 01:20:56PM -1 points [-]

I meant direct

Comment author: David_Allen 15 February 2013 02:44:00AM 0 points [-]

This one line response seems generally repetitive to your others. It isn't obvious to me that you are making an effort to address my challenge to your claim that 'experience itself is certain to exist'. If you would like to address that please do, otherwise it seems that we are done.

Comment author: shiftedShapes 15 February 2013 02:50:44AM 0 points [-]

If you attempt to answer my questions honnestly and succinctly I think that you will soon see my point, whereas now we are talking past each other. I appreciate that you have been putting more time into your responses than I have put into mine. Please do not take this as a show of bad faith, likewise I will not adopt the uncharitable interpretation that your responses are drawn-out in an attempt to obfuscate.

Comment author: savageorange 15 February 2013 02:33:25AM *  0 points [-]

The primary nature of first person experience

...

we do not and cannot perceive the external world as it really is but know only our ideas and interpretations of the way the world is. -- wikipedia article

Nope, that's exactly what is explicitly claimed.

Comment author: shiftedShapes 15 February 2013 02:43:25AM 0 points [-]

Direct realism should reference the reality of one's most direct experiences and not a concept that can only be understood indirectly, the "external world," through direct experience.

Comment author: David_Allen 15 February 2013 12:57:41AM *  0 points [-]

I believe that the answer depends on the perspective I adopt. This is the answer that makes sense from my current perspective.

If I model what I understand of your perspective within myself I would say that of course all my learning proceeds from some form of sensory experience, other claims are nonsensical.

With another model: The brain structures related to learning depend on more than just sensory experience, they also depend on the action of our DNA, gene networks, the limits of energy availability along with many other factors.

But why does the answer have to sensical from your perspective?

With another model: There is a process called MUP which is imparts knowledge in any form to the human mind. This is a process that by definition is any possible process not included by 'sensory experience' as defined by shiftedShapes. In other words MUP is any possible process, or perspective on a process that leads to learning beyond your claims about 'sensory experience'. Not being about to think of any examples of MUP does not disprove that MUP exists.

With another model: Blue hat.

Comment author: shiftedShapes 15 February 2013 02:16:06AM 0 points [-]

And how did you learn about brains, dna, the concept of a process or blue hat?

Comment author: David_Allen 14 February 2013 10:23:25PM 0 points [-]

Without full access to all possible perspectives of my implementation, how would I know for certain?

I can certainly adopt a perspective that describes how all learning proceeds through my sensory experience. But the identification of this pattern from my adopted limited perspective does not actually exclude other possible perspectives.

I'm not arguing that your model of sensory experience is wrong; I actually believe it has great descriptive value. I'm arguing that it is limited by and dependent on the context from which it appears to emerge.

I am arguing against your claims of certainty, in their various forms.

Comment author: shiftedShapes 14 February 2013 10:40:58PM 0 points [-]

What do you believe to be the case.

Comment author: shminux 14 February 2013 08:38:43PM 8 points [-]

Thinking that you have the ability to give up magical thinking might be magical thinking...

In response to comment by shminux on Rationalist Lent
Comment author: shiftedShapes 14 February 2013 09:43:38PM 1 point [-]

An induced coma might do the trick.

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