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In response to comment by sight on Suppose HBD is True
Comment author: DanArmak 23 April 2016 01:42:35AM -2 points [-]

That's true, but I'm not sure what your point is here. How is different selection pressure related to the idea that environmental factors also influence outcomes? It's not as if everyone could evolve to perfectly overcome their local environmental challenges and have the same outcomes as everyone else.

Comment author: sight 23 April 2016 01:58:11AM 0 points [-]

How is different selection pressure related to the idea that environmental factors also influence outcomes?

Environmental factors cause selection pressure on humans. This is what causes HBD.

In response to comment by gwern on Suppose HBD is True
Comment author: DanArmak 22 April 2016 08:36:15PM *  0 points [-]

If HBD is true, then all the existing correlational and longitudinal evidence immediately implies that group differences are the major reason why per capita income in the USA are 3-190x per capita income in Africa, that group differences are a major driver of history and the future, that intelligence has enormous spillovers totally ignored in all current analyses

I think you overstate the case. HBD being true would mean the differences between human groups are large enough to be important for all kinds of things. But it doesn't have to mean that these differences are so large that they swamp every other difference! There are plenty of other, undisputed differences between human groups, which are either non-biologically heritable, or are part of their geographical environment, that could contribute to or outright cause huge disparities between the US and Africa.

As just one example, if you took the African climate, and the sub-Saharan African prevalence of human disease and parasites, and introduced it to the US in a counterfactual past, I expect US average incomes would be much lower. There are many other examples and arguments I could bring here, but I'm pretty sure you can think of them yourself.

Differences in outcomes between groups in the US, or in the EU, are a much better case than the US vs. Africa or vs. China.

Comment author: sight 22 April 2016 11:15:44PM 0 points [-]

As just one example, if you took the African climate, and the sub-Saharan African prevalence of human disease and parasites, and introduced it to the US in a counterfactual past, I expect US average incomes would be much lower.

Yes, mostly because the teritory that is now the US wouldn't have been settled by the people it was ultimately settled by in the real world.

Comment author: Riothamus 22 April 2016 04:03:15PM 0 points [-]

What are your criteria for good foreign policy choices then? You have conveyed that you want Iraq to be occupied, but Libya to be neglected, so non-intervention clearly is not the standard.

My current best guess is 'whatever promotes maximum stability'. Also, how do you expect these decisions are currently made?

Comment author: sight 22 April 2016 11:05:46PM 0 points [-]

I wouldn't object nearly as much to occupying Libya as to what Obama actually did. Namely, intervene just enough to force Gaddafi out and leave a huge mess.

Actually I would still object, but that's because Gaddafi had previously abandoned his WMD program under US pressure. So getting rid of him now sends a very bad message to other thrid world dictators contemplating similar programs.

In response to comment by sight on Suppose HBD is True
Comment author: buybuydandavis 22 April 2016 02:24:40AM 1 point [-]

No. Efforts at "diversity in tech" could still lead to a more optimal match of skills to jobs.

HBD does not deny that there may be biases limiting the hiring of quality of applicants, it would just deny that differential outcomes are prima facie evidence of such biases.

Comment author: sight 22 April 2016 02:27:50AM 6 points [-]

Theoretically perhaps. That's not how current diversity in tech initiatives are organized.

In response to comment by sight on Suppose HBD is True
Comment author: OrphanWilde 21 April 2016 07:33:52PM -1 points [-]

It's further back the pipeline than hiring - there just aren't very many black programmers - so trying to solve the problem at the hiring stage is solving the wrong problem.

Comment author: sight 21 April 2016 09:43:32PM 3 points [-]

It's further back the pipeline than hiring

So? A lot of said initiatives atempt to intervene further back in the pipeline as well.

Comment author: gwern 21 April 2016 09:03:15PM 4 points [-]

What's your evidence that disease burden was substantially different in Africa, as a whole, than anywhere else prior to industrialization?

This is not a controversial point. Warmer and tropical climates have always had higher parasite and disease loads than colder ones. If you disagree with basic stuff like this, the burden is on you.

In response to comment by gwern on Suppose HBD is True
Comment author: sight 21 April 2016 09:38:10PM *  4 points [-]

Although in this case the relevant factor is that since humans originally evolved in Africa, it had more diseases that co-evolved with humans. Hence why South America, which has a cilmate similar to Africa had an even lower disease burden than Europe. At least until Europeans brought Africans, some of whom were infected with African diseases there.

Comment author: Riothamus 21 April 2016 08:51:36PM -1 points [-]

As compared to what alternative? There is no success condition for large scale ground operations in the region. If the criticism of the current administration is "failed to correct the lack of strategic acumen in the Pentagon" then I would agree, but I wonder what basis we have for expecting an improvement.

It seems to me we can identify problems, but have no available solutions to implement.

Comment author: sight 21 April 2016 09:25:27PM 2 points [-]

As compared to what alternative?

Well, not intervening in Libya for starters.

In response to Suppose HBD is True
Comment author: ChristianKl 21 April 2016 07:11:23PM 1 point [-]

Unless you're willing to commit to eugenics of some kind (be it restricting reproduction or genetic alteration), not much of anything.

You don't actually need to do explicit eugenics to change population patterns. China had the same demographic development as Taiwan did. China's birthrate also rose directly after adopting the one-child-policy. Culture seems to be a much stronger factor then direct policies.

Comment author: sight 21 April 2016 07:14:21PM 3 points [-]

China's birthrate also rose directly after adopting the one-child-policy.

Is something supposed to be negated in that sentence?

In response to Suppose HBD is True
Comment author: sight 21 April 2016 06:58:01PM *  10 points [-]

Also, if we can admit HBD is true it will become acceptable to publish social science studies whose conclusions make racial differences in inteligence obvious. Maybe, that will help with the current crisis the social sciences are in.

Imagine trying to do astronomy, or physics, without being able to admit that the Earth goes around the Sun. In fact, I caould imagine a 17th century inquisitor making a similar argument to yours about "supposing heliocentrism is true", and he would have had a much better case than you do.

In both case what both you and the inquisitor fail to realize is that truths are entangled and lies are contagious. Lying about heliocentrism requires one to lie about nearly everything in physics, similarly lying about HBD requires one to lie about nearly everything in the social sciences.

In response to Suppose HBD is True
Comment author: sight 21 April 2016 06:36:13PM 6 points [-]

If HBD is true then all the efforts at "diversity in tech" (not to mention Affirmative Action) are not only a waste of money but counter productive.

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