Comment author: Jiro 20 January 2014 08:00:04PM 2 points [-]

I think that it's fairly obvious that there wouldn't be even the relatively small percentage of seriously Christian scientists there are today if it had not been for centuries of proselytization, conversion by the sword, teaching Christianity to children from when they could talk, crusades, etc. I think it's also fairly obvious that this is not true of the percentage of scientists who are atheists. I also think it's obvious that it's not true for the percentage of scientists who think that, for instance, there are an infinite number of twin primes.

Typically one only notices these "memetic effects" in ideas one already disagrees with.

Really? I haven't heard anyone say "nobody would think there are infinitely many twin primes if they hadn't been taught that as a 4 year old and forced to verbally affirm the infinity of twin primes every Sunday for the next few decades". It just is not something that is said, or can sensibly be said, for any idea that one disagrees with.

In response to comment by Jiro on 2013 Survey Results
Comment author: simplicio 20 January 2014 11:29:14PM 2 points [-]

Your choice of twin primes as an example is kind of odd; implicitly, we are discussing the cluster of ideas that are controversial in some ideological sense.

To be clear, I agree that ideas often spread for reasons other than their truth. I agree that because of this, if you are careful, you can use the history of religion as ancillary evidence against theism.

But in general, you have to be really, really careful not to use "memetic effects" as just another excuse to stop listening to people (LessWrong's main danger is that it is full of such excuses). Sometimes true ideas spread for bad reasons. Sometimes what looks like a bad reason appears so because of your own ideology.

I'm not saying become a theist, or read huge treatises on theology. I'm saying give theism the 5 minutes of serious consideration (e.g., listening to a smart proponent) owed a belief held by a very large fraction of the planet.

In response to comment by gjm on 2013 Survey Results
Comment author: Jiro 20 January 2014 03:35:35PM 0 points [-]

Personally I would discount "believed by a large number of clever people" if there are memetic effects. There are traits of beliefs that are well-known to increase the number of believers for reasons unrelated to their truth. For any belief that has such traits, whether it's shooting unbelievers, teaching them to your children before they reach the age when they are likely to think rationally, or sending out missionaries, the large number of people who believe it is not much use in assessing its truth.

I would also discount anything which fits into certain patterns known to take advantage of flaws in human thought processes, particularly conspiracy theories.

In response to comment by Jiro on 2013 Survey Results
Comment author: simplicio 20 January 2014 04:04:57PM 4 points [-]

There are just too many ways to fool oneself here. I could talk for quite a while about "memetic effects" that make e.g. atheism appeal to (a certain group of) people independent of its truth. Typically one only notices these "memetic effects" in ideas one already disagrees with.

I think for standard outside view reasons, it's better to have an exceptionless norm that anything believed by billions of people is worth taking seriously for at least 5 minutes.

In response to comment by simplicio on Tell Culture
Comment author: TheOtherDave 20 January 2014 03:02:35PM 11 points [-]

In my experience, Guess culture (which I think is more fair to describe as "Hint culture") works really well when most people around me were raised in the same culture. We all know each other's expectations because we grew up together, and we all know how to communicate messages to one another implicitly, in ways that allow for a request to be turned down without the need for explicit rejection and all the emotional consequences of that, and we make use of that shared context in our daily interactions to reduce social friction.

Of course, it makes life difficult for outsiders who interact with us, and haven't grown up with that context, and therefore don't know how to communicate messages implicitly in our culture, and don't know how to interpret the implicit messages we send them. Outsiders are either mute or boorish (or perhaps both).

Conversely, Guess/Hint culture works really poorly in culturally heterogenous environments, when basically everyone is an outsider.

I observe that culturally heterogenous environments are a lot more common in the world than they were, say, 200 years ago; advances in transportation and communication tech probably account for that.

So that's one factor that seems relevant. (Of course, one could apply your argument again to claim that cultural heterogeneity is a new development and therefore suspect, and it's probably optimal for us to live in small isolated tribes.)

In response to comment by TheOtherDave on Tell Culture
Comment author: simplicio 20 January 2014 03:32:08PM 5 points [-]

Good point. But I wonder whether, when two Guess culture variants collide in a heterogeneous society, it's better to (a) switch to Ask culture, or (b) adopt the dominant culture's Guess dialect.

I would suspect the latter, because I think most people feel more at home in an alien status hierarchy than they do in an alien status hierarchy pretending it isn't one (a somewhat uncharitable gloss of Ask culture).

In response to Tell Culture
Comment author: simplicio 20 January 2014 02:31:21PM 4 points [-]

Guess culture has, I think, been the standard way for humans to hume for many thousands of years. My inclination is to imagine that, therefore, it's probably optimal, at least for typical people.

Am I missing something? Is there some factor that is pushing rules of social etiquette in a bad direction throughout human history?

In response to 2013 Survey Results
Comment author: Zack_M_Davis 19 January 2014 12:47:42AM 19 points [-]

The second word in the winning secret phrase is pony (chosen because you can't spell the former without the latter); I'll accept the prize money via PayPal to main att zackmdavis daht net.

(As I recall, I chose to Defect after looking at the output of one call to Python's random.random() and seeing a high number, probably point-eight-something. But I shouldn't get credit for following my proposed procedure (which turned out to be wrong anyway) because I don't remember deciding beforehand that I was definitely using a "result > 0.8 means Defect" convention (when "result < 0.2 means Defect" is just as natural). I think I would have chosen Cooperate if the random number had come up less than 0.8, but I haven't actually observed the nearby possible world where it did, so it's at least possible that I was rationalizing.)

(Also, I'm sorry for being bad at reading; I don't actually think there are seven hundred trillion people in Europe.)

Comment author: simplicio 20 January 2014 02:18:35PM 7 points [-]

When I heard about Yvain's PD contest, I flipped a coin. I vowed that if it came up heads, I would Paypal the winner $200 (on top of their winnings), and if it came up tails I would ask them for the prize money they won.

It came up tails. YOUR MOVE.

(No, not really. But somebody here SHOULD have made such a commitment.)

Comment author: Eugine_Nier 20 January 2014 03:57:43AM 3 points [-]

Yvain explicitly said "Wikipedia's Europe page".

Comment author: simplicio 20 January 2014 01:56:56PM 2 points [-]

Which users could not double-check because they might see the population numbers.

Comment author: simplicio 20 December 2013 05:15:09PM 1 point [-]

Regarding motivation for exercise, I find competition & praise is particularly helpful, perhaps especially for those of us of the male persuasion.

Fitocracy is kind of fun and has various challenges. Last summer I did various cycling & running challenges and eventually ended up so motivated that I completed a 100 km ride and a marathon, essentially for fun.

Alternately you could make bets with a friend about some well-defined goal like being able to do 100 pushups at a sitting.

Comment author: hyporational 19 December 2013 04:24:51PM 0 points [-]

Is cis or trans identity really something that is truth-apt (& therefore in the purview of probability)?

Could you explain what you mean by this via an easier to grasp concept than gender identity, preferably in a way that preserves relevance to identity?

Comment author: simplicio 19 December 2013 06:18:53PM 4 points [-]

Sure. Does it make sense for an individual to think about the probability that they (themselves) are a Manchester United fan?

I say it doesn't, really. If you (a) like ManU in some sense, and (b) are willing to call yourself a ManU fan, you are a ManU fan.

Comment author: RichardKennaway 19 December 2013 03:58:42PM 0 points [-]

A literature professor might ask: What happens when you see Hamlet in terms of Dennett"s epistemology as opposed to the epistemology of Aristotele?

If you want to ask that question it doesn't matter whether the epistemologies are true.

And if you want to ask the question of whether a yeti could defeat a Mongolian death worm it doesn't matter whether they exist. What is the purpose of seeing Hamlet in terms of this or that epistemology?

Comment author: simplicio 19 December 2013 04:09:11PM 1 point [-]

The same purpose as reading Hamlet in the first place; aesthetic enjoyment & intellectual exercise.

Comment author: fubarobfusco 19 December 2013 11:56:33AM *  10 points [-]

if we stop thinking about the fact that as an abstract, general question a random human being is much more likely to be cis than trans

That said, it could also be taken as advising you not to double-count your priors by using them to discount the evidence. Imagine you've drawn a ball from an urn, and the ball looks blue to you — but your priors say that 99% of the balls in that urn are red. How much time do you want to spend questioning the validity of your color vision or the lighting before you consider that you drew a rare ball?

Comment author: simplicio 19 December 2013 03:59:31PM -1 points [-]

Is cis or trans identity really something that is truth-apt (& therefore in the purview of probability)? It seems to be a combination of self-description of feelings, plus chosen group affiliation.

The self-description of feelings is presumably more or less infallible, and the group affiliation is stipulated by the individual.

View more: Prev | Next