Comment author: Viliam 20 April 2015 11:22:34PM *  1 point [-]

this is NOT the meaning in which mainstream economics uses the word "rent"

Wikipedia has an article on "economic rent", so it probably is an existing term, although I have never heard it before.

Seems like "rent" is an income from a (generally) limited resource, while "economic rent" is an extra income from a resource that (locally, temporarily) acts like a limited resource.

Just like apples are generally not a limited resource, but if you need an apple, and your time is limited, and there is only one shop on your way, and it contains a limited amount of apples... then those apples here and now behave like a limited resource.

Comment author: skilesare 21 April 2015 03:10:17AM 3 points [-]

Yes, exactly. Most economic theory assumes 'in the moment' and a bit of God like reach. In the real world we have to deal with time and space.

For most of us working stiffs, when we go to the store to buy milk we are charged an large amount of economic rent to buy it cold, in a container, near our home. Despite the fact that you really need to drive an hour or more to find a cow. Given infinite time and teleportation, we'd hit the farm and get it for much, much less. You only have to look to digital assets to see how this plays out. This isn't a bad thing. We want the farmer, the pasteurizer, the delivery man and the grocery store to stay in business, but we also want them to do it better, faster, cheaper next time. General market dynamics cause this to happen a rate. I want it to happen at a faster rate.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 April 2015 07:44:39PM *  1 point [-]

A competent wine maker is already rewarded for being able to produce a good bottle of wine under normal capitalism -- he can sell this bottle for, say, $50 and you can't do this with your homebrew.

As to you goals, I don't see why low velocity of money is a problem (yes, I'm familiar with Keynes). It's a symptom of the sluggishness of the underlying economic activity, not its cause. Having bank deposits or bonds pay negative interest is also a solved problem (see contemporary Europe), and if you want all store-of-value to be subject to negative interest rates you have to outlaw cash and equivalents to start with.

I don't know what is "good" value. I also don't know what is "dignity of labour".

And I don't think you're serious about robots :-P

Comment author: skilesare 21 April 2015 02:59:23AM 0 points [-]

The wine buyer is not rewarded for buying from a wine maker that will make a better wine bottle tomorrow though. Think for a bit on if she was.

I'm not sure if the velocity of money is a result or a cause of economic activity, but my reason tells me that if it is flowing faster, 'I' have a better chance at having some flow to me. P(making 100k at mv 6) < P(making 100k at mv 12)

Can you name a form of non artificial capital that is a cash equivalent? Maybe gold? Any non elements that aren't subject to entropy? Ultimately, yes, I think all artificial forms of 'store of value' should have an artificial form of entropy added to them because that is the way the world works.

I bet if you don't know what good value is that you at least know bad value when you see it.

I talk more about the full output of labour in this paper: https://www.dropbox.com/s/k97dzssxc58ux1s/hypercapitalismwpv1.1.pdf?dl=0

...as for the robots. I'm a little serious. If agi emerges into a world where economic nodes are dependent upon each other and it has more to gain from cooperation than dominating, it might buy us a few years to find a balance.

Comment author: Slider 21 April 2015 12:22:36AM 0 points [-]

From what I gathered if two sellers would sell the exact same product but another seller could sell it at double the price it would become a favoured node. If they were not interchangeable products you could try to argue that the difference must be between the quality of the products. However if the same product has the same use value the measure is more about better extracting profits. There is the effect that given choice of equal product at cheaper or higher price a consumer ought to go with the lower cost. Competetive effects are supposed to kill off overpriced products but giving a bonus to seller for having a big mark up dulls their teeth.

Comment author: skilesare 21 April 2015 02:38:19AM 0 points [-]

This is a tough one because most of the readily available literature on competition and market take a specific approach. Specific in the sense of time. Of course at the instant we don't want people favoring more expensive things...unless there is a damn good reason to. If you add in time though things get very interesting. This system alters the proposition to current market decision + future potential. You wouldn't pay more just to pay more, but you might buy a Tesla instead of a Honda accord because you think that Tesla had better long term earning potential and you are getting in on the ground floor.

Most of the things we buy aren't commodities. There is some trade off on features vs cost. This system does tip the scales toward things that may be more expensive, but only if there is a long term advancement that can be leveraged.

In the instance where we actually deal with a commodity, more emphasis will be placed on the long term repetitive production of that commodity. If the commodity can't be renewed it will be less favored. Thus I'd expect a vector away from depletable goods and toward renewable alternatives.

These assumptions are harder to work into a model.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 April 2015 06:26:35PM 0 points [-]

"Moneyness" is a term in finance :-)

Do you mean "better extract profit" or do you mean "generate value with higher productivity"?

And my initial question still stands: what is your aim and what problems do you want to solve?

Comment author: skilesare 20 April 2015 07:31:18PM 3 points [-]

See my answer below:

http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/m38/publishing_my_initial_model_for_hypercapitalism/ca33

I mean that some of us are better at generating some kinds value than others. (Division of Labor)

A wine maker who has been in the business for 25 years can make a better bottle of wine than I can. If he wanted to make the same bottle of wine that I can, he could do it more easily.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 20 April 2015 06:38:19PM 2 points [-]

It seems to me that your system involves a serious loss of privacy. Does it? If so, do you think that's a problem?

Comment author: skilesare 20 April 2015 07:29:02PM 3 points [-]

This is a great question. Privacy is important. How important is it? I'm not sure.

For example, I have some Apple stock. I don't hold it anonymously because I want to them to know where to send the dividends. People tend to quickly lose interest in privacy when they have something to gain from not being private.

On the other hand there are certainly some times where you want privacy. The system allows for this by having privacy pools that you can pay through that preserve privacy. It isn't as optimal as knowing exactly where the money came from, but if we can optimize 80% of transactions and 20% still need to be private, we can gain a lot of ground.

There are also some cryptographic solutions to the privacy issues that could solve the issue of privacy.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 April 2015 06:09:22PM *  3 points [-]

The economic rent is in the fact that there wasn't an apple tree on your the walk to the store.

And we come full circle to me pointing out again that this is NOT the meaning in which mainstream economics uses the word "rent".

You do want to popularize your theory, right? That means explaining things using terminology that your target audience knows and understands. Unless you have a very good reason, changing the meaning of pretty standard terms leads to much confusion.

Comment author: skilesare 20 April 2015 06:16:29PM 3 points [-]

Hmm...I'll have to look into this more. There certainly is a difference between 'rent' and 'economic rent'. I'm really don't think I'm misusing economic rent.

You can call it profit if you want. In the model, some nodes have a better ability to extract profit than others. Or we can call it 'make moneyness'.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 April 2015 05:58:29PM 2 points [-]

If all markets were perfect their would be neither profit nor economic rent.

That is not correct. If there are no profits, there are no incentives for sellers to stay in business.

Can you think of a situation where profit is not economic rent?

Sure. I walk into a grocery store and buy an apple. I paid more than the cost of the apple to the store -- where is my "disadvantage" that the seller exploited to get rent? To forestall the location rent argument, let me point out that there is another grocery store selling the same apples down the block.

Comment author: skilesare 20 April 2015 06:03:17PM 3 points [-]

The economic rent is in the fact that there wasn't an apple tree on your the walk to the store.

Economic rent isn't always bad. Otherwise we'd have an apple tree infestation problem.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 April 2015 05:09:38PM 2 points [-]

I don't like videos for explaining concepts, but that may be just me.

First question: what is your aim? What is the problem you're trying to fix?

Comment author: skilesare 20 April 2015 05:58:11PM 3 points [-]

Maybe a better question is what do I know and how do I know it? :)

Money was different than it is now 40 years ago. It was different 30 years before that. I know this because wikipedia tells me that Nixon took us off the gold standard in the early 70s and that standard was established at Bretton Woods in the 40s. Because of this I apply a very high probability to the likelihood that our money will operate differently in the future then it does now.

I guess the problem I'm trying to solve is, if we are likely going to be using a new kind of money in the future, do I want that to be a good kind of money or a bad kind of money. I want it to be a good, human centered kind of money that help us solve hard problem and makes the world a better place.

I think I know that our money is 'bad' (sub-optimal may be a better word) because I look around our world and I see the following things:

A crappy income tax An inability to get money out of politics ultra poor people Ultra rich people Wasted human resources (see the entire finance industry) Corporations sitting on billions in cash when they could be ending cancer

I think changing our money can solve some of these issues because I've read the literature on what drives people to make economic decisions. If we can implement a system that rewires the drivers in a positive directions, we can solve some of these problems.

I think hypercapitalism is the answer because I've written some simple models that shows it is more efficient that regular capitalism. I left 10 other solutions on the cutting room floor before I put this together.

Comment author: Lumifer 20 April 2015 05:29:21PM 5 points [-]

This is the amount that people pay for a thing above its cost because of a disadvantage they are under.

Not quite. The difference between the price the buyer pays and the cost of the good to the seller is the seller's profit which is not the same thing as rent. To call something "rent" implies that the seller controls some limited resource that cannot be easily reproduced or acquired by his competition.

Comment author: skilesare 20 April 2015 05:47:40PM 3 points [-]

I think it is semantics that depend on your assumptions:

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/economicrent.asp

Profits are economic rent are the same in a lot of instances. If all markets were perfect their would be neither profit nor economic rent. Can you think of a situation where profit is not economic rent?

Comment author: Xerographica 20 April 2015 04:37:57PM 1 point [-]

I love information and economics... so I read through some of your material... but I'm really not sure what problem you're trying to solve.

Comment author: skilesare 20 April 2015 05:12:42PM 3 points [-]
  1. A slow down in the velocity of money.
  2. How to make money with negative interest.
  3. How to optimize for creating 'good' value.
  4. How to restore the dignity of labor(reconciling leftist 'full value of labor' with the reality of market dynamics)
  5. How to make the robots not kill us.

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