Comment author: tadrinth 21 March 2012 12:54:16AM *  1 point [-]

If "A potion spends that which is invested in the creation of its ingredients." then what the heck goes into an Animagus potion? Something that's been transfigured a lot?

Edit: It doesn't seem like the method for becoming an Animagus is described in canon, so the potion aspect might be new to MoR.

Comment author: staticIP 18 March 2012 09:45:59PM 1 point [-]

Harry with the ability to invent potions would be powerful enough to wreck the story.

Harry with time travel would be enough to wreak the story. Harry with an invisibility cloak would be enough to wreak the story, Hell, harry with rationality would be enough to wreak the story.

That is, unless the other obstacles were ramped up to deal with it. Give Harry a time turner and enemies clever enough to know how to check on him. Give harry an invisibility cloak but add spells that can detect the presence of a deathly hallow. Give Harry mastery of potions but make creating them slow or just plain difficult.

Comment author: tadrinth 19 March 2012 04:25:25AM 0 points [-]

If potion invention is slow, Harry must have gotten the light potion from a book, since I don't think there's enough time between battles to do serious potion research safely between classes and homework, even for Harry's 30 hours a day. If he can invent potions that fast, he potentially has a huge number of instant win conditions available (that's what I really meant, that rapid potion invention would be a huge pain in the ass to write around). I think at this point it's clear that Harry probably does know enough to invent potions, but not without probably months or years of experimentation per new recipe. If he didn't know enough to be dangerous he wouldn't have freaked out Flitwick.

Comment author: gwern 16 March 2012 01:57:28PM 0 points [-]

Worse? What makes you say that? We seem to be seeing ever more action on his part, I actually would have said: from the Azkaban duel to his commentary in battles (and setting them up too) to his casual displays of sheer power/skill in the interrogation of chapter the last.

Comment author: tadrinth 16 March 2012 04:42:05PM 4 points [-]

Harry comments at some point that "He'd noticed the correlation between the effort Professor Quirrell expended and the time he had to spend 'resting'." (74)

Harry notices after Azkaban that Quirrell looks older (65).

What I meant was that it seems like Quirrell has spent more and more of his time active using his body as little as possible. Maybe we've just seen it more because he's hid less from Harry? In the most recent battle he talked and made the tiniest possible shrug but otherwise didn't move at all. When he was grading papers he did it purely by magic as well. Whenever he can let his body sit around and not move, he seems to try to do that.

Comment author: Serpentsong 14 March 2012 12:57:38AM *  4 points [-]

I'm puzzled by Harry's sunlight potion. Did it not require a magical ingredient?

Since we are told that there are no magical ingredients in the lesser woods where the battles are fought, and that all the potions in the books that Harry looks through unlock and redistribute magical energy (rather than ostensibly non-magical energy like sunlight), does this mean that Harry discovered a way to brew potions without magical ingredients? I recall no hint that this is possible, and yet no one watching the battle seems to find the potion notable. To be fair, the fundamental potion-making law doesn't explicitly rule out an all-mundane potion ("A potion spends that which is invested in the creation of its ingredients").

I also find it unlikely that Harry invented the potion himself (I believe general potions-theory and the system for deducing the proper arbitrary stirring patterns would have been given a more complete coverage, if that were the case), so it appears that Harry found a suitable potion using Flitwick's recommended resources. But I still don't know whether the "magical ingredient requirement" is absolute (and Harry bypassed it just by, e.g., putting something of his own magic into the potion as a trigger but not as the main ingredient), whether it's a mere conceptual limit that wizards never thought to test, or whether potions with non-magical ingredients exist and are well-known, but are relatively so rare that Harry just didn't happen to run across any in his initial search.

What am I missing?

Comment author: tadrinth 16 March 2012 06:42:03AM *  1 point [-]

My theory is that potions which don't involve magical ingredients are obscure because they're usually less powerful and because they require a greater investment of energy from the creator to do the reshaping (explaining why Harry doesn't do very much in that battle). Given that Flitwick and McGonagal had suggestions of books to make at all after hearing what Harry wanted, it seems very likely that such potions do exist, just not in the standard textbooks. It seems very likely that Harry got his potion out of a book, because potions research is dangerous and presumably very time consuming, and because Harry with the ability to invent potions would be powerful enough to wreck the story.

Comment author: gwern 13 March 2012 07:06:48PM 2 points [-]

Everybody sleeps eventually, which is worse than Quirrel's catatonia.

Comment author: tadrinth 16 March 2012 06:35:18AM 1 point [-]

The catatonia appears to be getting worse and worse over time. Channeling strong magic through Quirrell accelerates the decay. I suspect he'll crap out as a host by the end of the school year, and that's with Quirrell being reasonably conservative of his energy.

Comment author: 75th 13 March 2012 02:12:29AM *  6 points [-]

(Can't find a good place to insert my entire current edifice of theory elsewhere, so I'll put it as a top level comment.)

Quirrell is Voldemort is Mr. Hat and Cloak. Quirrell's ultimate goal is driving Harry permanently into his Dark Side, so as to be another Voldemort, either to rule alongside the real Voldie or to be led by the real Voldie.

Quirrell's first attempt at driving Harry over to his Dark Side was with the Dementor in the Humanism sequence. He would have succeeded, had Hermione not been there to bring him out of it. So from Quirrell's point of view, Hermione is Harry's anchor to his good side.

So then it makes perfect sense for all the events of Self Actualization and this new sequence to be Quirrel/Voldie/H&C's handiwork. Quirrell helped SPHEW win that last battle in Chapter 74 so as to paint a larger target on Hermione. When Harry came to him with his plan for that battle, he just laughed, because Harry had unknowingly come to him with a brilliant plan to further Quirrell's own goals for Hermione's doom. He poisoned Hermione against Draco (which was difficult, because Quirrell is pure evil and Hermione is pure good and he can't understand her) so as to provoke House Malfoy further.

Now Hermione is in deep trouble, just as Quirrell intended. All that remains is for something unspeakably awful to happen to her soon, which, Quirrell believes, will help do to Harry what the Dementor almost did in January.

Comment author: tadrinth 16 March 2012 06:30:35AM 3 points [-]

I'd like to point out that after Azkaban, when Quirrell tries to talk Harry into his next plot, Harry refuses by citing what Hermione and Draco would say. Quirrell sits there and thinks for a really long time, and asks if Harry really cares about what they think. My guess is that right then and there is when Quirrell decides to take them out.

Comment author: shokwave 13 March 2012 08:15:39AM 11 points [-]

Hat-and-Cloak is Voldemort but not Quirrell. When in Quirrell, Voldemort has a whole (probably quite powerful!) brain to run his computation on. Outside of Quirrell, he relies only on what computation he can do purely as a 'ghost', or as magic, or whatever. Hat-and-Cloak is thusly disguised because Voldemort lacks a body. Or maybe Voldemort possesses someone else, who isn't as smart as Quirrell, and is proportionally dumber and more prone to mistakes. Quirrell is zombie while Voldemort's away because Voldemort set it up that way. Don't want your robot walking away without you.

Part of the groundhog-day attack involved setting up a trigger in Hermione, that when she can attack Malfoy, she should try to kill him. This explains her behaviour in the battle, and her apparent behaviour in the duel.

Hat-and-Cloak is a player in this story. Players in this story are clever and powerful. A sensible way of resolving this apparent contradiction is to postulate some form of disability or restriction applying to Hat-and-Cloak. Then all you need is Conservation of Characters.

Comment author: tadrinth 16 March 2012 06:15:54AM 4 points [-]

What evidence is there that H&C isn't just Quirrell wrapped in an illusion?

There's no need for Hermione to have cast the lethal hex. She wins the duel, then the real perpetrator stuns both of them, hexes Draco, and then memory charms Hermione into thinking she did it. However, if that's the case, unless the perpetrator then used Hermione's wand to cast the hex, checking what spells her wand had cast would reveal something fishy.

Why are we proposing the H&C is not clever and powerful?

Comment author: Locke 12 March 2012 03:37:30AM *  0 points [-]

Hermione probably won't be cut off from any outside contact, so she will be able to tell Harry about the duel if she wants to/is able to. We can't discount the possibility of obvliation.

Comment author: tadrinth 13 March 2012 04:55:14AM *  6 points [-]

The terms of the challenge state that she can't tell anyone about it before or after the duel or it goes to the Wizangamot. So, no, presumably she can't tell Harry about it.

Heck, she might have severely injured Draco by accident, rendered basic medical care, and then just left, because she can't tell anyone. If someone found Draco unconscious and half-dead later, and they figured out Hermione did it and left him, that would look like attempted murder.

Comment author: drethelin 13 March 2012 04:09:38AM 0 points [-]

I think you're reading too much into it. Mysterious makes sense when you're describing a feint.

Comment author: tadrinth 13 March 2012 04:46:46AM 2 points [-]

Especially when the person in question has been fighting a lot of bullies lately AND is royally pissed off.

Comment author: 75th 13 March 2012 01:52:52AM 3 points [-]

I wouldn't say that H&C is necessarily new to the concept of Groundhog Day Attacks. If Quirrell is Voldemort and also H&C, he would not likely have a good mental model of the pure and innocent and good and upright Hermione Granger. It would take him a few tries to find the right levers to push.

But I'm not sure that Hermione isn't simply under the Imperius Curse at this point. When she's fighting Draco, she gives her wand a "mysterious flick" in a very un-Hermione-like feint. I don't know why Eliezer would deliberately place that word "mysterious" there unless he wanted to hint that Hermione isn't fully in control of her faculties.

Comment author: tadrinth 13 March 2012 04:45:59AM 1 point [-]

It's possible that H&C never did figure out an effective lever. In that case, he might have given up on Memory Charming her (requires the target's defenses to be lowered, at least in the case of an experienced Auror and possibly for a very pissed off first year) and just oblivated her. If he'd managed to memory charm her, I don't think she'd have been so freaked out. She also wouldn't have 'lost track of time', she'd have had a perfectly reasonable legitimate excuse put in place.

Also, have we seen Quirrell use Legilimancy at all? If we have, that's an argument for H&C not being Quirrell, because if you've thoroughly read someone's mind you it shouldn't take that many tries for a groundhog day attack.

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