Thanks for reply. That makes more sense to me now. I agree with a fair amount of what you say. I think you'd have a sense from our previous discussions why I favour physicalist approaches to the morals of a FAI, rather than idealist or dualist, regardless of whether physicalism is true or false. So I won't go there. I pretty much agree with the rest.

EDIT> Oh just on the deep ecology point, I believe that might be solvable by prioritising species based on genetic similarity to humans. So basically weighting humans highest and other species less so based on relatedness. I certainly wouldn't like to see a FAI adopting the view that people have of "humans are a disease" and other such views, so hopefully we can find a way to avoid that sort of thing.

Thanks that's informative. Not entirely sure your own position is from your post, but I agree with what I take your implication to be - that a rationally discoverable set of ethics might not be as sensible notion as it sounds. But on the other hand human preference satisfaction seems a really bad goal - many human preferences in the world are awful - take a desire for power over others for example. Otherwise human society wouldn't have wars, torture, abuse etc etc. I haven't read up on CEV in detail, but from what I've seen it suffers from a confusion that somehow decent preferences are gained simply by obtaining enough knowledge? I'm not fully up to speed here so I'm willing to be corrected.

EDIT> Oh... CEV is the main accepted approach at MIRI :-( I assumed it was one of many

The stability under self-modification is a core problem of AGI generally, isn't it? So isn't that an effort to solve AGI, not safety/friendliness (which would be fairly depressing given its stated goals)? Does MIRI have a way to define safety/friendliness that isn't derivative of moral philosophy?

Additionally, many human preferences are almost certainly not moral... surely a key part of the project would be to find some way to separate the two. Preference satisfaction seems like a potentially very unfriendly goal...

For the record, my current position is that if MIRI doesn't think it's central, then it's probably doing it wrong.

But perhaps moral philosophy is important for a FAI? Like for knowing right and wrong so we can teach/build it into the FAI? Understanding right and wrong in some form seems really central to FAI?

I'll leave these two half-baked ideas here in case they're somehow useful:

DO UNTIL <Failsafe mechanism> - Construct an AI to perform its utility function until an undesirable failsafe condition is met. (Somehow) make the utility function not take the failsafe into account when calculating utility (can it be made blind to the failsafe somehow? Force the utility function to exclude their existence? Make lack of knowledge about failsafes part of the utility function?) Failsafes could be every undesirable outcome we can think of, such as human death rate exceeds X, biomass reduction, quantified human thoughts declines by X, mammalian species extictions, quantified human suffering exceeds X, or whatever. One problem is how to objectively attribute these triggers causally to the AI (what if another event occurs and shuts down the AI which we now rely on).

Energy limit - Limit the AIs activities (through its own utility function?) through an unambiguous quantifiable resource - matter moved around or energy expended. The energy expended would (somehow) include all activity under its control. Alternatively this could be a rate rather than a limit, but I think this would be more likely to go wrong. The idea would be to let the AGI go foom, but not let it have energy for other stuff like a paperclip universe. I am not sure about this idea achieving all that much safety, but here it is.

I don't know if an intelligence explosion will truely be possible, but plenty of people smarter than I seem to think so... good luck in this field of work!

Wouldn't most AGI goals disregard property rights unless it was explicitly built in? And if it was built in, wouldn't an AGI just create a situation (eg. progressive blackmail or deception or something) where we wanted to sell it the universe for a dollar?

The risk of course is the AI predicting that it's nested in this sort of environment and finding a way to signal to observers. Even if it's blind to the other layers it might try it just in case. What you want is to develop a way for the simulated world environment to detect a harmful intellgience explosion and send a single bit binary communication "out of the box" to indicate that it has occurred. Then you can shut it down and keep trying multiple instances until you get a success at this level of safety. I guess you can then slowly expand the amount of information that can come "out of the box" for safety. I have no idea how the detection process could be implemented, though... perhaps the difficultly of its implementation would defeat the usefulness of this idea?

EDIT> Interaction between the AGI and the detection mechanism could be problematic... it could predict its existence and find a way to deceive it?

Thanks for comment. I will reply as follows:

• Knowing how things could go wrong gives useful knowledge about scenarios/pathways to avoid
• Our knowledge of how to make things go right is not zero

My intention with the article is to draw attention to some broader non-technical difficulties in implementing FAI. One worrying theme in the reponses I've gotten is a conflation between knowledge of AGI risk and building a FAI. I think they are separate projects, and that success of the second relies on comprehensive prior knowledge of the first. Apparently MIRI's approach doesn't really acknowledge the two as separate.