Comment author: Wes_W 14 September 2016 11:29:34PM *  2 points [-]

But in the single-shot scenario, after it comes down tails, what motivation does an ideal game theorist have to stick to the decision theory?

That's what the problem is asking!

This is a decision-theoretical problem. Nobody cares about it for immediate practical purpose. "Stick to your decision theory, except when you non-rigorously decide not to" isn't a resolution to the problem, any more than "ignore the calculations since they're wrong" was a resolution to the ultraviolet catastrophe.

Again, the point of this experiment is that we want a rigorous, formal explanation of exactly how, when, and why you should or should not stick to your precommitment. The original motivation is almost certainly in the context of AI design, where you don't HAVE a human homunculus implementing a decision theory, the agent just is its decision theory.

Comment author: thrawnca 14 October 2016 03:21:25AM *  -1 points [-]

we want a rigorous, formal explanation of exactly how, when, and why you should or should not stick to your precommitment

Well, if we're designing an AI now, then we have the capability to make a binding precommitment, simply by writing code. And we are still in a position where we can hope for the coin to come down heads. So yes, in that privileged position, we should bind the AI to pay up.

However, to the question as stated, "is the decision to give up $100 when you have no real benefit from it, only counterfactual benefit, an example of winning?" I would still answer, "No, you don't achieve your goals/utility by paying up." We're specifically told that the coin has already been flipped. Losing $100 has negative utility, and positive utility isn't on the table.

Alternatively, since it's asking specifically about the decision, I would answer, If you haven't made the decision until after the coin comes down tails, then paying is the wrong decision. Only if you're deciding in advance (when you still hope for heads) can a decision to pay have the best expected value.

Even if deciding in advance, though, it's still not a guaranteed win, but rather a gamble. So I don't see any inconsistency in saying, on the one hand, "You should make a binding precommitment to pay", and on the other hand, "If the coin has already come down tails without a precommitment, you shouldn't pay."

If there were a lottery where the expected value of a ticket was actually positive, and someone comes to you offering to sell you their ticket (at cost price), then it would make sense in advance to buy it, but if you didn't, and then the winners were announced and that ticket didn't win, then buying it no longer makes sense.

Comment author: lolbifrons 18 August 2016 12:09:15PM *  0 points [-]

Sorry, but I'm not in the habit of taking one for the quantum superteam.

If you're not willing to "take one for the team" of superyous, I'm not sure you understand the implications of "every implementation of you is you."

And I don't think that it really helps to solve the problem;

It does solve the problem, though, because it's a consistent way to formalize the decision so that on average for things like this you are winning.

it just means that you don't necessarily care so much about winning any more. Not exactly the point.

I think you're missing the point here. Winning in this case is doing the thing that on average nets you the most success for problems of this class, one single instance of it notwithstanding.

Plus we are explicitly told that the coin is deterministic and comes down tails in the majority of worlds.

And this explains why you're missing the point. We are told no such thing. We are told it's a fair coin and that can only mean that if you divide up worlds by their probability density, you win in half of them. This is defined.

What seems to be confusing you is that you're told "in this particular problem, for the sake of argument, assume you're in one of the worlds where you lose." It states nothing about those worlds being over represented.

Comment author: thrawnca 12 September 2016 04:52:43AM 1 point [-]

We are told no such thing. We are told it's a fair coin and that can only mean that if you divide up worlds by their probability density, you win in half of them. This is defined.

No, take another look:

in the overwhelming measure of the MWI worlds it gives the same outcome. You don't care about a fraction that sees a different result, in all reality the result is that Omega won't even consider giving you $10000, it only asks for your $100.

Comment author: hairyfigment 18 August 2016 08:53:06AM 0 points [-]

So say it's repeated. Since our observable universe will end someday, there will come a time when the probability of future flips is too low to justify paying if the coin lands tails. Your argument suggests you won't pay, and by assumption Omega knows you won't pay. But then on the previous trial you have no incentive to pay, since you can't fool Omega about your future behavior. This makes it seem like non-payment propagates backward, and you miss out on the whole sequence.

Comment author: thrawnca 11 September 2016 10:57:45PM 0 points [-]

I wouldn't trust myself to accurately predict the odds of another repetition, so I don't think it would unravel for me. But this comes back to my earlier point that you really need some external motivation, some precommitment, because "I want the 10K" loses its power as soon as the coin comes down tails.

Comment author: Wes_W 18 August 2016 05:07:00PM 0 points [-]

There will never be any more 10K; there is no motivation any more to give 100. Following my precommitment, unless it is externally enforced, no longer makes any sense.

This is the point of the thought experiment.

Omega is a predictor. His actions aren't just based on what you decide, but on what he predicts that you will decide.

If your decision theory says "nah, I'm not paying you" when you aren't given advance warning or repeated trials, then that is a fact about your decision theory even before Omega flips his coin. He flips his coin, gets heads, examines your decision theory, and gives you no money.

But if your decision theory pays up, then if he flips tails, you pay $100 for no possible benefit.

Neither of these seems entirely satisfactory. Is this a reasonable feature for a decision theory to have? Or is it pathological? If it's pathological, how do we fix it without creating other pathologies?

Comment author: thrawnca 11 September 2016 10:54:29PM 0 points [-]

if your decision theory pays up, then if he flips tails, you pay $100 for no possible benefit.

But in the single-shot scenario, after it comes down tails, what motivation does an ideal game theorist have to stick to the decision theory?

Like Parfit's hitchhiker, although in advance you might agree that it's a worthwhile deal, when it comes to the point of actually paying up, your motivation is gone, unless you have bound yourself in some other way.

Comment author: Matvey_Ezhov 01 August 2012 07:18:18PM *  6 points [-]

In "The Evil Plutocrat" all parties would probably cooperate to vote the bill down, since otherwise they will be sending a message that they could be played in that (and probably other) fashion, which will deminish their future profits, as other lobbyists would try to play them instead of bribing.

Comment author: thrawnca 30 August 2016 05:19:06AM 0 points [-]

It should also be possible to milk the scenario for publicity: "Our opponents sold out to the evil plutocrat and passed horrible legislation so he would bankroll them!"

I wish I were more confident that that strategy would actually work...

Comment author: thrawnca 18 August 2016 02:52:47AM *  0 points [-]

is the decision to give up $100 when you have no real benefit from it, only counterfactual benefit, an example of winning?

No, it's a clear loss.

The only winning scenario is, "the coin comes down heads and you have an effective commitment to have paid if it came down tails."

By making a binding precommitment, you effectively gamble that the coin will come down heads. If it comes down tails instead, clearly you have lost the gamble. Giving the $100 when you didn't even make the precommitment would just be pointlessly giving away money.

Comment author: Wes_W 17 August 2016 03:36:27PM 1 point [-]

Decision theory is an attempt to formalize the human decision process. The point isn't that we really are unsure whether you should leave people to die of thirst, but how we can encode that in an actual decision theory. Like so many discussions on Less Wrong, this implicitly comes back to AI design: an AI needs a decision theory, and that decision theory needs to not have major failure modes, or at least the failure modes should be well-understood.

If your AI somehow assigns a nonzero probability to "I will face a massive penalty unless I do this really weird action", that ideally shouldn't derail its entire decision process.

The beggars-and-gods formulation is the same problem. "Omega" is just a handy abstraction for "don't focus on how you got into this decision-theoretic situation". Admittedly, this abstraction sometimes obscures the issue.

Comment author: thrawnca 18 August 2016 02:42:02AM *  0 points [-]

The beggars-and-gods formulation is the same problem.

I don't think so; I think the element of repetition substantially alters it - but in a good way, one that makes it more useful in designing a real-world agent. Because in reality, we want to design decision theories that will solve problems multiple times.

At the point of meeting a beggar, although my prospects of obtaining a gold coin this time around are gone, nonetheless my overall commitment is not meaningless. I can still think, "I want to be the kind of person who gives pennies to beggars, because overall I will come out ahead", and this thought remains applicable. I know that I can average out my losses with greater wins, and so I still want to stick to the algorithm.

In the single-shot scenario, however, my commitment becomes worthless once the coin comes down tails. There will never be any more 10K; there is no motivation any more to give 100. Following my precommitment, unless it is externally enforced, no longer makes any sense.

So the scenarios are significantly different.

Comment author: lolbifrons 17 August 2016 01:30:00PM 0 points [-]

It seems to me the answer becomes more obvious when you stop imagining the counterfactual you who would have won the $10000, and start imagining the 50% of superpositions of you who are currently winning the $10000 in their respective worlds.

Every implementation of you is you, and half of them are winning $10000 as the other half lose $100. Take one for the team.

Comment author: thrawnca 18 August 2016 02:34:22AM *  0 points [-]

Sorry, but I'm not in the habit of taking one for the quantum superteam. And I don't think that it really helps to solve the problem; it just means that you don't necessarily care so much about winning any more. Not exactly the point.

Plus we are explicitly told that the coin is deterministic and comes down tails in the majority of worlds.

Comment author: thrawnca 17 August 2016 07:52:19AM 0 points [-]

I think that what really does my head in about this problem is, although I may right now be motivated to make a commitment, because of the hope of winning the 10K, nonetheless my commitment cannot rely on that motivation, because when it comes to the crunch, that possibility has evaporated and the associated motivation is gone. I can only make an effective commitment if I have something more persistent - like the suggested $1000 contract with a third party. Without that, I cannot trust my future self to follow through, because the reasons that I would currently like it to follow through will no longer apply.

MBlume stated that if you want to be known as the sort of person who'll do X given Y, then when Y turns up, you'd better do X. That's a good principle - but it too can't apply, unless at the point of being presented with the request for $100, you still care about being known as that sort of person - in other words, you expect a later repetition of the scenario in some form or another. This applies as well to Eliezer's reasoning about how to design a self-modifying decision agent - which will have to make many future decisions of the same kind.

Just wanting the 10K isn't enough to make an effective precommitment. You need some motivation that will persist in the face of no longer having the possibility of the 10K.

Comment author: Wes_W 15 August 2016 11:49:46PM 1 point [-]

Precommitments are used in decision-theoretic problems. Some people have proposed that a good decision theory should take the action that it would have precommitted to, if it had known in advance to do such a thing. This is an attempt to examine the consequences of that.

Comment author: thrawnca 16 August 2016 10:29:35PM *  1 point [-]

This is an attempt to examine the consequences of that.

Yes, but if the artificial scenario doesn't reflect anything in the real world, then even if we get the right answer, therefore what? It's like being vaccinated against a fictitious disease; even if you successfully develop the antibodies, what good do they do?

It seems to me that the "beggars and gods" variant mentioned earlier in the comments, where the opportunity repeats itself each day, is actually a more useful study. Sure, it's much more intuitive; it doesn't tie our brains up in knots, trying to work out a way to intend to do something at a point when all our motivation to do so has evaporated. But reality doesn't have to be complicated. Sometimes you just have to learn to throw in the pebble.

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