Comment author: Lumifer 22 June 2016 08:49:06PM 1 point [-]

These are not some magical anonymous items that are above the law and inviolate

It is an article of faith is some circles that the blockchain is exactly this kind of magic :-/

Comment author: tsathoggua 22 June 2016 11:29:23PM -1 points [-]

I hate this so much, and it happens so often with Tech stuff. Just because something is brand new, and does not have laws or regulations relating to it right now does not mean that people can simply do whatever they want.

Courts are still going to litigate this stuff, and people are definately going to sue if they start losing huge amounts of money, and it is just worse that the creators are basically not planning for these issues, but just going off the basis that it is all going to work out.

Comment author: scarcegreengrass 22 June 2016 10:01:48PM 3 points [-]

Just to clear some things up:

  • In some contexts, 'smart contract' is a misnomer: it's just a computer program that resembles a legal contract but does not interact with the government in any way. It just moves money according to agreed-upon rules. I don't think it's common to use both a legal contract and a 'smart contract' to enforce the same agreement.

  • In the specific case of the project known as 'TheDAO', the terms of service does indeed waive all legal rights and says that whatever the computer program says supersedes all human-world stuff. (https://daohub.org/explainer.html)

  • All of this stuff is so experimental that there's an exception to everything at this point.

Comment author: tsathoggua 22 June 2016 11:26:28PM 0 points [-]

In the specific case of the project known as 'TheDAO', the terms of service does indeed waive all legal rights and says that whatever the computer program says supersedes all human-world stuff.

I may have missed it, but that is not at all what the link you posted says. It has a waiver of liability against 3rd parties (basically the DAO operation). It does not say that you cannot have liability between to parties subject to a contract, or even seem to mention anything about dispute resolution.

Also, I would like to point out that you CANNOT have a contract that requires an illegal act. For instance, you cannot create a contract that says "Person A waives all legal recourse against Person B if Person B murders them." The act of murder is still illegal even if both parties agree to it.

Finally, the TOS for DAO is not the contract, it is merely the TOS for using the service. So the individual contracts between two people are going to override that.

Comment author: WalterL 22 June 2016 09:19:03PM 3 points [-]

So, the theory goes:

In a normal contract you agree to abide by some rules. If you break them penalties, etc.

But you don't have to 'just' trust those rules to agree to the contract. You have to trust the oversight body. If you get the better of me on the text of the contract I might turn around and appeal to a judge that you are still violating the spirit of the contract.

The idea of the 'Smart contract' is that the code is the contract, and there is no appeal. Our 'contract' is just an executable which does what it does. You only have to trust it, and not some random judge.

This instance, where someone is unhappy with how their smart contract worked out in practice, and the dev/community at large are playing judge, has a lot of people wondering whether they are ending up with the worst of both worlds.

Comment author: tsathoggua 22 June 2016 11:16:16PM 1 point [-]

Right, except Is there a section in the code that says the parties agree to have no legal recourse? Because if not, I can still appeal to a judge. The simple fact is that in the legal eyes of the law, the code is not a contract, it is perhaps at best a vehicle to complete a contract. You cannot simply set up a new legal agreement and just say "And you don't have any legal recourse".

Comment author: ChristianKl 22 June 2016 06:54:15PM 0 points [-]

Law might want to govern them, but the power of the state is limited. A court can't compel a computer that executes code to do anything.

Comment author: tsathoggua 22 June 2016 08:23:29PM 2 points [-]

The law cannot compell you not to murder either, but does that mean you can go out an do it freely? No.

The law doesnt need to compell the computer code, it can force people to do things, it can force the code to be rewritten, it can shut down servers that run the code, it can confiscate the money used in the processes.

These are not some magical anonymous items that are above the law and inviolate. While it is true that they have not been litigated yet, that time is quickly coming, and they still rely on outside individuals to complete the contracts, and are still governed by all the same laws that everything else is.

Comment author: ChristianKl 22 June 2016 05:33:01PM 0 points [-]

The contract isn't enforced by a court of law but is enforced by computer code.

Comment author: tsathoggua 22 June 2016 06:47:11PM 2 points [-]

But that isnt even true. If two people enter into a contract they are governed by law, regardless of whether it is a paper contract or computer code. I highly doubt there is any legal language in the computer code saying that the agreeing parties waive any US legal rights.

The code is not the contract, but rather a vehicle to effect the contract. You can have the exact same setup without the code.

On top of that, there is some legal questions as to what the DAO stuff actually is as a legal matter.

Comment author: tsathoggua 24 November 2015 04:40:34PM 1 point [-]

So I will comment on the one example that I can speak somewhat fluently on, which is Thought experiment #2.

In the modern economy, hedges are publicly traded as well as the stocks. It is impossible for one to rise in value without the other falling, simply because information is public. If the executive begins to buy huge hedges against his corporations stock, the value of the hedge will rise.

Even if no one knows who exactly is buying these hedges, the price is going up, and so people will either begin to buy hedges as well, thus reducing the gain on them, or they will sell the stock, lowering its price and reducing the gain on the hedge.

Also, buying hedges based on private information would also be insider trading....at least in the US.

Comment author: tsathoggua 19 July 2014 03:07:47PM *  2 points [-]

naively assuming linear returns to medical research funding

Likely the returns in medical research would be not even close to linear. The Law of diminishing returns will hit you hard. Spending 10x more on research will likely net you far less than a 10x increase, you would likely be lucky if you got half or a quarter of that. Science comes in steps and part of the process that reduces so much waste is peer reviewing and replication of results. Some processes simply cannot be sped up, regardless of funding. Even with infinite funding, I would be impressed to see a 10x growth.

My main question to you is: Why is it better to have a million robots that are all able to do "X" and build themselves instead of one factory that builds robots and a million robots that do "X"?

Obviously replication in certain circumstances is very useful (mars/space exploration for example where "shipping costs" are not only astronomically expensive but nearly impossible on large scale). In the same way 3D printers are useful not because they can replicate themselves (the cant), but because they can create custom things in short amounts of time wherever and whenever they are needed. It is because the jobs they are doing is small scale that they are efficient. You can ship one thing and have it create 100s of other things.

Comment author: ialdabaoth 03 July 2014 08:50:10PM 9 points [-]

I'm also unhappy with him being banned from commenting but not downvoting. While I frequently found his comments obnoxious and annoying in their connotations, they definitely served a net positive on the site.

That said, his moderation practices clearly served a larger net negative, so if there are technical reasons why it's difficult to undo his moderation and ban him from moderating in the future, I suppose this is the best we can get.

Comment author: tsathoggua 04 July 2014 02:52:46AM 2 points [-]

I think the end goal is to stop him from down-voting as well as commenting as mentioned in the last sentence of the post.

Comment author: solipsist 03 July 2014 07:29:24PM 8 points [-]

The ban made me uncomfortable, and the talk of Eugine as being "guilty" makes me even more uncomfortable. My take:

Perfect is the enemy of the good. If we expect massive downvoting to be a recurring problem, then maybe it would have been worth waiting until the development of non-voting accounts or dekarmification mechanisms. As an ad hoc solution to the problem du jour, banning a user is fine.

Comment author: tsathoggua 04 July 2014 02:51:14AM 1 point [-]

I guess the question is whether someone who took action by themselves to mass down vote for the express purpose of removing other users from the site would stop simply because his primary method was removed.

If I were doing the down-voting, and was then de-karmified, it would be the next logical step to find another way around the system such that I could continue my actions without the use of karma.

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